1 20 12 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/28784b3c30f163bdc849212720c334b0.mp3 f9443bb1ce949ef5b58b77062a769b50 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax on May 11, 1989. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05-11-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm19890511.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ead5e0dccd3f526b200e8b3f11126898.pdf 855c378e4604eaca2f1fe67cabaf7d41 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Margarite Reed Syphax INTERVIEWER: Cocklin/Campbell DATE: May 11, 1989 INTERVIEWER: This is the Oral History Program of the Arlington County Library at Central Library on May 11, 1989. This is Cas Cocklin accompanied by Edmund Campbell and we are interviewing today Margarite R. Syphax, Margarite Reed Syphax. Margarite, suppose you tell us a little bit about your background. You came, I know, originally from Pennsylvania. NARRATOR: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I had my schooling in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania through high school and also my business education at Duff Iron City Business College. That is a business school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. That was a year finished there. And from there I went on to accept on June 9th, I finished high school in 1941, I finished the Duff Iron City Business College in 1942. I left in 1942 accepting a government job in Washington D.C. during the war and I worked there in Washington for less than a year. We were transferred up to Newark, New Jersey, where I was a supervisor for Marine Corps. We sent out and reviewed and produced checks or allotments for the service personnel for their families. While in the government, I lived in New York City while I worked in Newark. We just went on and rode the subways, it was very simple. While I was living in New York I took advantage of taking dancing lessons. I was taking acrobatic ballet work, ballet meaning only that it's ballet preparations in doing acrobats, not just doing stunts but you're doing it in a dance form. I became very good at it and so while in the government, they formed, they found they had quite a bit of talent in the government, so they formed a show group and we traveled around in New York City, vicinity of New York City and New Jersey and entertained at all the different military installations. At one point they thought that I was good enough to go out professionally, so I did go out professionally with a professional group and we traveled down, this is in 1945, leaving just before May Day, while we were travelling the President died, President Franklin Roosevelt in May 1945. While we were travelling. . . INTERVIEWER: He died in April. He died in '45. The war ended May 8th, but Truman was President then. NARRATOR: We went from there travelling all through Georgia and Florida, Alabama whatever, in all this of 1945, we were in Tuskegee, Alabama. At that time, that was the end of the war with Japan, end of the Japanese War, August 1945. We were in Tuskegee, Alabama, for thirteen days and we performed throughout Georgia and Alabama and all the vicinities where they had installations and we did a lot of performing on the base right at Tuskegee, Alabama. It was my first time to see black military officers in their summer uniforms and caps and they looked absolutely beautiful. And when we arrived on our chartered bus, the man in charge of entertainment, I guess you would say, on the base came out to meet us in the military bus and my husband, he wasn't my husband then, a young very handsome cocky lieutenant, William Syphax, who was on that bus who came out to meet us and he took a liking to me immediately, sat down beside me as we were going back into the base and helping to prepare for our rooms and whatnot. We were there for the thirteen days, but I didn't get a chance to see him until almost like the 10th, 11th and the 12th. I left on the 13th. He told me after much talking, we had long, long discussions on our background and whatever and he told me about the 11th day that I was there, we're leaving on the 13th, he said that the Lord said I was to be his wife. Apparently I was prepared for it, because I didn't get excited, I didn't say no or yes. I accepted it and we called my mother that night and of course they thought we were crazy, whoever heard of somebody just meeting but anyway we didn't have any problem. I left the thirteenth day which was the last week in August and the war with Japan was over and we were on our way back because I was to be prepared, they were going to prepare me with shots and whatever to go with the troops to Burma, India, and China. We were going there for a period of time to entertain the troops. We were to leave in December, I think for Christmas. So my husband wanted to get married by Thanksgiving. From August until November, he wrote every day, he wrote me a book. Giving me orders, telling me about myself, what he expected of me, what he wanted, that type of thing. INTERVIEWER: And you accepted all this? NARRATOR: He knew exactly what he wanted. Somehow I was prepared. I never bucked it and I'm a very independent person. I didn't buck it. But we had a fabulous wedding, the first wedding up in Ithaca, New York, where Cornell is, that's where his family lived and we had it there because my father was very ill, so my mother travelled up there and prepared it. In the meantime before he sent me there, sometime in September, I went up to Ithaca by myself on the train to meet his family. Now they anticipated, when they said "show business", they're very religious, Mother Syphax is extremely religious, so when he said I was a dancer, immediately "hoochy koochy", "strip dancer". They had a negative, but the children, his sister, baby sister and his brother Archie and Jessie were very excited. They wanted to meet this showtime girl and of course, when I arrived on the train, this little girl in bobby socks and this little wild hair, red hair and I was like a teenager. They just couldn't get over it. But they fell in love with me. We got attached very easily, but they still were watching me, wanting to see if I was going to walk with a bounce and all that. We laughed about that all the time. I was the quite the opposite of it. Very young, I was very mature, but very young, really. Very sheltered. So we prepared for the wedding, it was the first wedding they had in that church, in that community in many, many, many years. So it was the town affair. They had prepared the house. Our minister, Rev. Mackley, Dr. Aaron Mackley. He was up in Ithaca, New York, which was the home of Cornell University. He was there having a revival in Mother Syphax's church. He based the revival on Friday. Our marriage was on Saturday, we arrived Saturday morning somewhere around 11:00 and as we were arriving, he was leaving, he had helped Mother Syphax paper the house, fix the house up for the wedding reception. That pastor, Rev. Mackley, from the day of our marriage until this last, our 43rd anniversary in our church. Every November he recognized us. For 43 years he recognized us from the pulpit. Because in our second anniversary we were living in Arlington. By that time we're back home. This past year was the first year in November my husband was not in the church on Thanksgiving when they recognized our marriage. The first time. That Rev. Mackley has been all through our life. INTERVIEWER: What happened to your trip to the Orient? NARRATOR: We got married and I had had all my uniforms and I had all my shots and I was to leave and my husband was to sign for me. He said, "No, you will not go." I was hurt about it but then not too much. Then again, later years, the troop that went over contacted malaria. It affected them throughout their life. My very good friend in California, right now, she just is not right. The malaria had an effect on all of them. I was saved from that. INTERVIEWER: When did you come to Arlington? NARRATOR: We got married in November. In May 1946, we moved on the base. We moved to Columbus, Ohio. Lockbourne Air Base was where he was stationed. General Davis was in charge. We moved to Columbus, Ohio and we immediately became active with the church and the community. I started working there as a bookkeeper in the Housing Authority, very active. We lived in Ohio from May '46 until March 1947, not even a year and we moved here to Arlington because he was discharged in March '47 and he came to Arlington. INTERVIEWER: Where did you live then when you moved here? NARRATOR: Yes, we lived with his aunt in the old established center, that house right there on the corner of Quinn and Columbia Pike right now, a big house there. We stayed with her for a few days until we got a room in somebody's home right behind our church. In our community where we are now. We just moved around the corner. So we stayed with her from March . . . INTERVIEWER: And who was his aunt? NARRATOR: Mrs. Julia T. Deane, that's his mother's sister. Mrs. Deane was a church clerk for many years, 40 years or so. INTERVIEWER: And you became involved with the church right away. NARRATOR: He joined church Sunday. I arrived here, I think, on Saturday. Went to church that Sunday, but the next Sunday, I joined church. INTERVIEWER: And the church is. . . NARRATOR: Mt. Olive Baptist Church. 1600 S. 13th Road in Arlington. INTERVIEWER: And you have both been extremely active in that over the years. NARRATOR: That's right. We've done everything. He's been the director of the choirs and singing in the choir, worked in the building fund. I have been in the choir. I still teach Sunday School, I've taught Sunday School all the years of my marriage. I'm on the education committee. INTERVIEWER: Mentioning building, that of course is what your husband and you got started in. Tell us a little bit about that. NARRATOR: When we first came to Arlington, he was so accustomed to having more than one job and just going to work at Arlington Hall, he was stationed at a government agency. He was an engineer. He used to go up the Pike and come home. He was not accustomed to having all that time on his hands so he went out and took a real estate course and began to work selling real estate. He did very well. But our neighbor who owned a lot of run down property and was told by the county that she had to tear them down unless she put indoor plumbing in. My husband, being an engineer, most people down here thought an engineer could do anything. So she asked him to do something about her housing. We had no training in the field whatsoever. But we got it together, we tore down one of her two pieces of property and got a man to dig out the hole and got somebody to build a little jack leg carpenter, but anyhow we put up a duplex. We put two families in that house. While we were building that house, somebody come to us for another. We found ourselves building for more than that woman. Everybody who had a piece of land, we were building on. INTERVIEWER: You were giving employment to how many people at that point? Or was your husband and were you doing any of the actual work or were you doing supervising? NARRATOR: Both of us were on the government. I was at the Navy Annex. We would come home on lunch. I'm on one end and he was very close to home. We would operate at nighttime and lunchtime. Before we went to work, lunchtime and nighttime, that's when we were doing the building. Of course, when we got started and got moving so rapidly, I had to resign and I came and I supervised the job and I supervised until 1968 when my husband took a year's leave from the government, got his Master's Degree and came out and resigned from the government because I was building the houses and they were to start building apartments. I was not trained, I was not an engineer. So he came out to do the apartments. But I built all the houses. We had 110 custom houses. INTERVIEWER: In Arlington. NARRATOR: In Arlington, North Arlington, South Arlington, Alexandria, Oakton. INTERVIEWER: Were your clients all black? NARRATOR: No, indeed. Started out all black but after a while another engineer who worked with my husband who does his house up in Oakton, Virginia. That was an all glass, super modern home. It was really quite a challenge. We began to do medical offices, additions to churches, daycares, just building. In Washington D.C. It was really all the areas. We got caught up in that for thirty years. We were recognized on the national level. INTERVIEWER: You were also taking special training? NARRATOR: I was studying the whole thirty years. I was in some kind of school. See, what I was doing, I never got a degree because I was keeping up, I was studying all of the different phases I needed to know. INTERVIEWER: Property Management Institute at Howard University, Arlington Distributive Education Program with a variety of things dealing with real estate and collection and management and preparation. Upper Iowa University, what was that? NARRATOR: I went there for residency there to just really get established getting my accounting. That's where I got my accounting background. INTERVIEWER: I see. Then you were designated Certified Property Manager from the Institute of Real Estate Management of the National Association of Real Estate Boards, one of the first black women to receive this designation. NARRATOR: That's right, it was from American University. I studied at American University, that's where they have a chair. I got that certification. INTERVIEWER: So this gave you more competence and confidence. NARRATOR: And what it also allowed me to be, it allowed me to be a consultant to the MBA's. I went to Philadelphia to the Wharton and Howard University, we went down to the University of Virginia, black groups that would have us in. They used us all around because of our actual experience that we had. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned Wharton School, now did you study there or you. . . NARRATOR: No, I went to Wharton School annually. They had a whole weekend seminar, particularly for the black students. They would bring me in. I would talk about the actualities out here in the building field or in the business world, What was actually happening, how we got into it, what we were doing, what we were encountering and so forth. Those were the questions and they were getting it in the books but they wanted to hear what it was actually like. I did the same thing at Howard University. Gave them actual accounting of what happened when you get into this business and how you operate in it. INTERVIEWER: But you also studied actually at Howard too. NARRATOR: No, took courses. I have never had the opportunity to just go to school and go through school for a degree. INTERVIEWER: But you do have listed here further studies. You did do some classes at Howard. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: I see here on your background information the mention of Syphax Enterprises and obviously this developed out of the real estate and the building but tell us how that actually evolved. NARRATOR: First we started out with Syphax Construction, building the houses. But then we began to find land and began to develop and we had Syphax Engineering & Developing Company and then after we started building and began to manage apartments, we had the Syphax Management Company. The umbrella was the Enterprises all the different ones, we did a total work in housing from finding the land, developing the land, building the houses, managing the houses, you know. INTERVIEWER: And were you involved in financing? NARRATOR: Yes. We went to the banks. INTERVIEWER: I know, but you weren't financing the buyers. NARRATOR: No. We were never in the position to finance. INTERVIEWER: In the heyday of Syphax Enterprises, how many people did they employ? INTERVIEWER: As you developed this umbrella of Syphax Enterprises with the different categories underneath it, how many people were you employing? NARRATOR: We started off, I'm talking about the men in the field, the carpenter, the man who digs the hole out and the plumbers and we had sub contractors, electrician and the roofing man, each individual person were sub contractors but as far as in the office, I did all of the typing, all of the bookkeeping, all the record keeping, all the reporting and my husband did the overseering of the work, looking and checking the work and then I would go out into the field and supervise the men, coordinate all the work. He would work with me at night and I would carry it out during the daytime. And then we got a little bit bigger, we built the apartments, we built seventy seven units called Arlington View Apartments. They were not high rise, garden apartments. We took a basement area and got our first office. We used our children in the office, all our kids were going away to college at this time. They worked all summer long. The boy would come home and help lay brick and help do the carpentry, whatever. The girls, some of the boys too, would work in the office, the office records and my little girl next door, I tutored her and trained her so that she could get her equivalency for high school (G.E.D.). Anyway, I trained her, she was the mother of three children and hadn't finished high school. I tutored her until she finished high school and trained her in the office to do the typing and keeping records of tenants not paying rent and we're paying bills. All of my children worked in the office, every one of them, from cleaning apartments, everything possible all of them cut their teeth in the office. A lot of the community children, that's how we started off, that way. INTERVIEWER: You still haven't told me how many, roughly. I realize it was probably flexible. NARRATOR: Roughly about a half a dozen started off just in the office, doing different things and as we grew and we got the Syphax building over here on Taylor Street, we had a manager and we had a bookkeeper and an accountant and we must have had a dozen people in the office there. INTERVIEWER: How many were doing construction? Are you talking about fifteen or thirty or more? NARRATOR: If you're talking about the people who are doing the different jobs and everything, you'd have to say maybe fifty to seventy five people. Not sub contractors, these are people who are laborers or they're managing the apartments, that type of thing. Custodians, cleaning apartments, that type of thing. INTERVIEWER: Were most of these people from your neighborhood or did your employees come from all over Northern Virginia? NARRATOR: All over Northern Virginia and Washington D.C., yes. INTERVIEWER: So you gave quite a bit of employment, didn't you? NARRATOR: Yes, we did. And of course with the subcontractors, even then that we got was more. Because we were able to get the carpenters, we were able to supply people to help them, almost all of them, the plumbers. INTERVIEWER: Do you still have the Syphax Enterprises? NARRATOR: No, all of them have been dissolved. Because in 1979, we had a bankruptcy that was because of the oil embargo. I do remember that, in 1970, it was so costly, it took everything we had. We could not continue to go on. It was too costly. That was in 1979. My husband went into other, smaller businesses at that time. Different little things that he could do. INTERVIEWER: Did the Syphax Enterprises go into bankruptcy? NARRATOR: Totally. Yes. In 1979, yes. The oil embargo wiped us out eventually, yes. INTERVIEWER: But because you were so involved in a wide range of building activities, real estate activities, you developed more and more contributions to the community. I noticed you, for instance, were a former member of the Arlington County Plumbing Board. The Tenant Landlord Commission. All of these things where your work had brought a certain level of expertise for you. NARRATOR: That's right. We served on those boards. Because we were dealing with the county every day in the building business. We knew everybody, we had our plans and we knew everybody in the county and therefore they remembered us from all the other years. INTERVIEWER: I see that you were a member of the Chamber of Commerce. Did you find the Chamber of Commerce was helpful to you as a business or was this merely that you participated. NARRATOR: Yes, at that time. Membership did not offer us anything. INTERVIEWER: Were there any of these civic jobs that responsibilities that you particularly enjoyed or did you do them more as a sense of. . . NARRATOR: All of them were important to me. Marymount College, I was on the Board of Regents and also Mother Majella and I became extremely close because she was working so hard trying to tutor and do things. We had a special program up there. Many and marvelous children went through that program. I was on the advisory board. INTERVIEWER: What was that program called, do you remember? NARRATOR: Public Discovery and many youngsters got good training going there, remedial training or whatever. But I worked very, very closely with Mother Majella, still to today we are very, very close. We don't get to see each other that often. She came to the home when my husband passed to be with me, but over the years we talked intimately about the problems and I kept her up with the black world, what was going on. She had a black student start in the school, she had me there to assist and to talk with them. I would work very closely with her. I think that being honored as the Businesswoman of the Year with the black magazine, Ebony Magazine, which is an international magazine, that was one of the greatest honors to be a role model as a black woman in the field. That was in 1977. INTERVIEWER: 1977, yes. Special issue of Ebony Magazine. August 19th, '77. NARRATOR: Then my husband and I got a big write up in the Post about us as a team, building team. INTERVIEWER: Yes, I think I remember seeing that one. NARRATOR: We did have a power team group. We did things together. The church, the community, the children, we did all these things together. INTERVIEWER: Let's go back later to the power, because I think that has been important. Tell us a little bit about your activities with children. You, yourself, had two children. NARRATOR: I had two children, but my husband and I are nurturing people. Our home till today, till tonight, is always filled. It's the annex to the church, it's the annex to the school, it's the annex to the community. We do all the church planning, a lot of planning, a lot of the things we do in the church is carried out in my house. It's a comfortable place after church where people gather together. Our doors are always unlocked and it's always open to everybody. It's because of our nurturing attitude that we have, loving people and encouraging them and giving them good strokes that they need and this is why they're drawn to us. Both of us are the same type of people. We're Aunt Marge or Uncle Tommy or Uncle Bill or Mom to everyone. It's no Mrs. Syphax, it's rare. I don't have anyone to call me that. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any foster children who were formally with you as foster children or was this always an informal sort of an arrangement? NARRATOR: Always informal. We raised seven children in our house, my two children and the others. They came different ways. The college sent them, called me up at the house and have children who just needed to have that nurturing. The community schools did it when the child had one parent and at the time, in my day, the one parent was not prevalent like it is now. One of the youngsters had older, he was adopted but they were older, they were like his grandparents so they didn't understand him so he spent his time with me. Last time, I went to Virginia Union University in Richmond to a graduation and this youngster got his Masters in Divinity, Magna Cum Laude. All of my children have had some fine big degrees. They've been ordained and this is girls, they've got degrees, Masters degrees, Doctor degrees. My husband has always pushed education and I've always been behind it. INTERVIEWER: Let me interject there. Your husband in his interview referred to these children that you took care of. Did you really raise them? Did they stay in your home? NARRATOR: Yes. Not all of them. Some of them lived so close they couldn't sleep in the house. I put them out at 11:00 at night, they'd have to go home. We raised in the house four of them, my two children and three others lived in my house. INTERVIEWER: Did you and your husband pay all of their expenses? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. INTERVIEWER: And took care of their food and their clothing. NARRATOR: And they worked in the business. INTERVIEWER: And over what period of time did a child stay with you? Ten years? NARRATOR: They never left. When they got married, we gave the weddings and they got married and lived close by. INTERVIEWER: They're still your children, are they? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. They're still part of the family. INTERVIEWER: How many are there in all, would you say? NARRATOR: Well, when I took it together this year sometime, it's over a hundred. Our home has been the home away from home or the home that they needed to have something. They've become a part of us. We're Aunt Marge, Uncle Tommy or Mom or Dad to these children. INTERVIEWER: Well, if you were going to take in a child, would you make any arrangements with them, say, from now, we're going to be your father and mother to you? NARRATOR: Let me give you this last example. In December, Wakefield, the counselor, social worker, music teacher contacted me about a little girl who was a senior who was a talented and gifted child and they needed to take her out of that home. It was an abusive home, mentally abusing. She came to us in December. My husband said, "I have cancer, I have no money, I don't know how I could do it. But if God sent that child here, bring her here, we'll take care of her." That child came into our house the 27th of December. She has been a delight of my life. No money, no nothing. Somehow we managed. She is doing good, I've gotten her college altogether now. She applied to eight prestigious universities and got accepted in every one of them. She's going to go to Hood, which is a small girl's college in Frederick, Maryland, so she'll be just an hour away from me, because she has to be nurtured. She's coming out now to love and to speaking, our home is heaven to her because no cursing, no fighting, no smoking, no drinking. INTERVIEWER: This is really your greatest achievement and your husband's greatest achievement, isn't it? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. This is our love, this is why I think we exist. INTERVIEWER: You think possibly there's seventy five or a hundred of them all together? NARRATOR: There's more than a hundred. All of them didn't live in the house. The last one just left, we got her through Virginia State University, got a job with IBM, a girl who worked all the way through from Chicago, left home and school because they needed a home life. INTERVIEWER: Do most of them call you "Mom"? NARRATOR: Aunt Marge and Mom. Tommy and Dad. INTERVIEWER: Did your own children ever resent any of this or not? They have the same sort of loving natures? NARRATOR: They do and they became a part of it. They had big brothers and sisters. My children were the younger of the first group. Very much so. At Christmas time I remember, we had number one son, number one daughter, number two son, number three daughter and all the stockings. It was a big, big thing. All of my children except my son have gone on to achieve academically and professionally. INTERVIEWER: During the period before the bankruptcy of Syphax Enterprises, you were able financially to do a great deal more for them, were you not? NARRATOR: It was still rough. One time we had four in college at one time and they would come home in the summertime and work and we would send the check and pray that by the time this check went through the second time, the money would be there. This was how we operated, because we had four of them, then one would come out and then another would go in. They would come home on holidays and weekends and work hard in the business. INTERVIEWER: And you were paying their expenses in college? NARRATOR: Yes. All expenses, yes. I got one now who's been married, one married my daughter. One of the youngsters, she's forty five now. They got their degrees in financing. He went on to get his Masters. Now he's gone to law school, finishing law school next week. They all pushed. My husband was education pushed. INTERVIEWER: This is really an astonishing contribution to the life of Arlington, it seems to me. NARRATOR: Another thing they do, they go on and they take in somebody. INTERVIEWER: It's a ripple in a pond and it's spreading. NARRATOR: Absolutely. INTERVIEWER: You talked about power and I think you were referring to the power of God as well as the power that is in you. NARRATOR: The power of worthwhileness. We have been blessed, I won't take credit for it, I think that God just touches people. We've been blessed to live a clean life and to be able to be moral, not desiring to do that, run the streets and do things like that. I've always been a homey person. My house is my castle, come in. "Don't you get tired?" No. I hug and I love, you know, I must need as much as they do. My husband and I started the hugging and kissing in my church. Everybody hugs and kisses in the church now. INTERVIEWER: You were very fortunate the two of you found each other. NARRATOR: That's why we said, God put us together. That's why we have to believe that. There's no way, we were two distinct people. We were born for each other. We had a tremendous love for each other. The last year when he was home sick and I'm not realizing it's terminal. This was a love year. He was always so good to me, I was always on a pedestal. He always talked about his love. I have been loved all of my life and so it's easy for me to love. INTERVIEWER: This is what the problem is of course with so many of these children coming from homes where there is so. . . NARRATOR: They tell me, they just come in today, they got three or four other girls who are just like the girl I have that need to find a place because they say the homes are not good. They want to do something but the homes are not healthy for them. There's all kinds of things going on in the homes. INTERVIEWER: That's a very discouraging situation at times and all you can do is do what you can do. NARRATOR: I'm going to have to take on another one. My LINKS is doing six months of seminars on teen pregnancy and on drugs and alcohol and everything and one little girl's gotten very attached to me. I went out and bought her shoes the other day. I wanted her to go to church. She didn't have the proper clothes. Her father went out of town and left her mother with twenty dollars with two children to buy food. Little by little when I do this, my other children help. They all work together. INTERVIEWER: You've been involved in mental health clinic and the Northern Virginia Mental Health Association. NARRATOR: Yes, because at an early age, I was very successful in turning my daughter, my daughter was, my sister gave birth to her but divorced early in life and I took her, did not adopt at first, but she had terrible problems until I went to the Mental Health and found her, all she wanted to do was get her name changed, she wanted our name, she wanted to be a part of, so I'm acquainted with that. I've taken many children, I've taken this last child is going there right now. I know the value of that. Getting that therapy, getting that stuff out of you. That mental health has never left me, that's only because I had a good experience that I was willing to serve it then. INTERVIEWER: When I first met you was on the Board of that Clinic. Long time ago. What other things? I see that you are a Trustee Board Member of the National Historic Ford Theatre. NARRATOR: Frankie Hewitt, who is still the director there, how did Frankie meet me, I just really can't remember. Somebody introduced us. I think we had a mutual friend. He was told about my talent because I had organized an organization called "Music Lovers" and we put on shows all over Arlington. Frankie wanted me to get on the Board to draw blacks to attend. Oh boy, we filled that place. INTERVIEWER: They put on a lot of black shows. NARRATOR: Yes, indeed. I crowded the theatre out. We did preview shows, whatever. I produced three shows there and videoed them. Arlington County videoed them. The Music Lovers. Our church gospel chorus is powerful. We had musicians and dancers, ballerinas, and we did fashion shows on the Ford theatre stage. We did three big productions there. Raised $50,000 in five years and we gave the money away to all the black organizations like Urban League and the YMCA, NAACP, our church, we bought an organ for the church. We bought a piano for our musicians. INTERVIEWER: Is the Music Lovers still in existence now? NARRATOR: No. We retired after five years. It felt it was in conflict with the church, we resolved it now. We have it all on tape. A marvelous time. INTERVIEWER: Are there other activities you would particularly like to comment on? You were a member of the Arlington Health and Welfare Council and then a representative to the Metropolitan Board of Health. NARRATOR: I think right now I'm very honored and very proud to be on the Trustee Board. This is my third term. I'm in my seventh year. I have two more years. Arlington Hospital Trustee Board because this is a community need and we're developing the hospital and doing the best, working to bring the best of the health care. It's very serious because the health care is a serious problem today. I was at a meeting this afternoon, a Planning Committee meeting, but I have enjoyed that. I've traveled much with them, going to the national meetings in Hawaii and to San Francisco, to Boston, to Chicago. I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of that. I represent the community. INTERVIEWER: They work closely, I know, with the Northern Virginia Visiting Nurses or the nurses work closely with them. NARRATOR: I represent Arlington Hospital on that Board. I belong to the President's Council for the Good News Mission and this is where we supply chaplains and studies and everything inside the jail. I don't go into the jail. I have others go in there now. It was too much for me. But I enjoyed that counseling in the jails and teaching the Bible. INTERVIEWER: You're talking about the Arlington jail? Did you find there was a real demand for this? NARRATOR: Yes. Yes. INTERVIEWER: Is it imposed from outside? NARRATOR: What do you mean, is it imposed? Once you get them quiet, they're anxious to hear the right thing. A lot of the youngsters in there, they all knew me. Anybody from Arlington in there, they know me. I mean, I know them because I have been a leader for so long, they know me very well. I did very well. I was able to work with a lot of them who are out now and doing very well. But it was just too much. I'm into too many things now. I just have to quiet down a bit now. INTERVIEWER: I see you're also a member of the Board of the Junior League of Northern Virginia. What particular programs are they involved in that you're interested in? NARRATOR: Teenage pregnancy. We're all out there to do what we can when the homes abuse, abusive homes and whatever. I also represent the community, bringing the need in the community to the Board. What direction they should be going in. I represent the Links on that board. INTERVIEWER: You were talking about the Jail and knowing a lot of these young, I presume most of them are young, who are in the jail. What do you think, I've talked to other people who live over off of Shirlington Road and whatnot, what do you think of the drug trafficking there? What do you think the county can do with that? I know it's not a one, two, three and you have the problem solved, but what are the overwhelming needs there? NARRATOR: The overwhelming need is education, based, instead of going to jail, they should be confined to a detox and education. We've got to get it out of them at first, but they should be getting treatment to understand what it's doing to them and why because they're going into that. It's like the mental health therapy. If they had the therapy, they wouldn't need it. They have problems, they can't cope with their lifestyle. The homelife and whatever. It's just easy to step right into that. But I think instead of putting them in jail, they need to be put into a detox, they say it's expensive, so is a jail, a detox place and forced to take that education, forced to be trained to understand. INTERVIEWER: It's one of the programs that Mr. Bennett, the new drug czar hopes to install. NARRATOR: What exactly is his plan? INTERVIEWER: His plan is for first offenders to put them in a so called "boot camp" and give them hard physical exercise along with education during a certain period of time. NARRATOR: I agree. They're laying up in the jail, sitting up in the jail, laying up in the jail looking at TV. I agree. They should be out there cleaning up the community doing some physical work and being trained. But putting them in jail? That's soft. They're just confined. They're sitting around while we're working. INTERVIEWER: You received many awards but one of the awards was "Woman of the Year", from which organization? NARRATOR: From the Inner Service Council of Arlington. That's a council that all the service organizations of Arlington belong to and we coordinate our activities and programs. Each year, they name a woman and man of the year and depending on your activities and contributions you've made to Arlington County. INTERVIEWER: This was when? NARRATOR: This was approximately six years ago. We have it every November. We hold it up at the Knights of Columbus, you know, the big Knights there and give the awards. INTERVIEWER: I've noticed another thing you've done is read to the blind. Is that actually reading to the blind or are you making the records? NARRATOR: I started out by having blind friends. I'd go over and sit with them. I'd sing, I'd read a Scripture and express different activities of what's going on. Just lift them up. I would enjoy that. You know, they're in the dark. I have other people working with me now who are having the same thrill that I've had. Working and reading to them. Over the phone, if I can't get there, I do it over the telephone. Sometimes now they're in nursing homes. INTERVIEWER: I see also to talk about something slightly different that you were a member of the Cherrydale Senior Citizens Tap Dance Class. Are you still in that? NARRATOR: No, I don't have time. It was senior citizens and we got up there and . . . INTERVIEWER: You were on NBC. NARRATOR: We were on television. They came up and interviewed us. I'm a natural tap dancer, I've been tap dancing all my life. I just don't have the time anymore. But then I entered several years ago, about four years ago, they now have Miss Senior Citizen every year and they go to the national. That year I won second. The reason I won second is because I didn't look enough like a senior citizen to represent them. INTERVIEWER: You were second in Arlington or second in the national. NARRATOR: Second in Virginia. The state of Virginia. I didn't look enough like a senior citizen to represent them on the national level. INTERVIEWER: Besides all your nurturing of all these children, you have continued in your church with activities and as you've said, you sung in the choir, directed music activities. NARRATOR: I'm not into music any more. Now, my biggest thing is teaching Sunday school and working with the education committee. Scholarships and preparing youngsters for college and having seminars to help them with interviews. We have activities where we raise funds, we have a walk a thon every year. INTERVIEWER: When you say you're counseling them, are you doing this alone or do you have a team that's working together from the church? NARRATOR: We have a whole organization in the church called the "Minority Education Committee". I'm the co chair of that. INTERVIEWER: How many youngsters are you working with as a rule? NARRATOR: I'd say we average around twenty to twenty five. They move on and the next group comes in and we support those who are in college and they come home and we have college night and we bring in speakers, we bring in information for people, now we're even bringing in health information and how to take care of yourself. Our whole goal is to educate. INTERVIEWER: Your Sunday school classes, are these children? NARRATOR: Now, I'm teaching adults. I have men that I'm training who are teachers. I think we need black models so I've got four men who are just excellent. These are adults. I'm the moderator of a group now. INTERVIEWER: I don't see how you have time to do all of this. I want to ask you your opinion of how Arlington has developed educationally vis a vis the blacks over the years. INTERVIEWER: Cas said that she did not know how you had time to do all these things that you're doing. Noting that this interview is being held at night, the first interview of 100 or more that we have held that has taken place at night, and the reason it's taking place at night is because you advised us that there was no time during the seven days in the week that such an interview could be held. What do you do during the day? NARRATOR: Right now, for the first time in thirteen years, I'm working. I work in the dentist's office right now, managing a dentist's office. But before I leave home at nine o'clock in the morning, I've done a day's work as it is. INTERVIEWER: Doing what? NARRATOR: I have a little youngster now with me, I'm the guardian of a youngster at the high school and I've got to see that she gets up properly, at night time to see that her work is done, but in my house, like say for instance last night, a group came in, we're working on a dedicatorial book in our church. We're having a new sanctuary going up. INTERVIEWER: How big is your church? NARRATOR: Our congregation is about 24, 25 hundred members in our church. It's jammed. You have to run to get a seat in our church. We have outstanding speakers, outstanding singing. You know we clap, we rejoice in the Lord. INTERVIEWER: I gather you have something going on in the morning before you go to work and you have something going on in the evening when you come home. NARRATOR: People call me. Now, they have to call in the noontime, I'm home from twelve to one thirty. Pray with them, counsel them, they're having a problem in the family, I'm a sounding board. Whatever they need, I try to do that. We had a meeting last night, we're putting a book together. Getting ads and getting memorials, that type of thing. But there's so much to do. INTERVIEWER: What are you doing on Saturdays? NARRATOR: Let me tell you what I'm doing Saturday. Tell you what I did today. I worked at the office. Today I went to work at nine o'clock. INTERVIEWER: This is a Thursday. NARRATOR: I start off in the morning by having an hour of meditation, then half an hour of exercise and a little breakfast. I write letters, write bills. I went on to the office. I work from nine o'clock until twelve, twelve o'clock I went to the nursing home in Alexandria on King Street. I took a load of clothes to a lady that I go to see every week. She was a woman in our community and Archie Syphax was taking care of her but he died and I promised his wife I would do it. So I've been doing it for a year. She's an old member of our community. I took her a bunch of clothes, I pick up the dirty clothes. Yesterday was her birthday so I sang Happy Birthday to her, read her cards to her and loved her up. Rushed back home to get home, still had a hour and a half lunch, come home, I had lunch, I made some telephone calls, read my mail. Back out again, I went back to work at one thirty until quarter to four. I left early to rush up to Arlington to go to my board meeting at Arlington Hospital. I left the board meeting at five thirty, went back to work to close the office and settle things. Got home at six thirty, fix dinner, got these papers together and rushed up here. Saturday morning at nine o'clock I have to be in the Courthouse representing Arlington Hospital, all of us board members are going to be there. At one o'clock I go to Fort Myer Officers Club for the LINKS, our monthly meeting we have from 1:00 until 4:00. We're a service organization. We just came back from a conference up in Atlantic City. We get all the news and we bring that back. Then when I get back home that evening, I've got to go through the community and collect for my Heart Association. I'm the captain of the Heart Association. Everybody's got to bring their money to me but I have a route that I have to go to too. Sunday morning, I'm at church 7:45 for the 8:00 service until 9:30. 9:30 I teach Sunday school. 11:00 I'm there for the second service. I go to all three. Then I come home about one. INTERVIEWER: Now wait a minute. How many people do you have in your Sunday school class? NARRATOR: I have about thirty five. Adults. Then I come home. I'm going to have pot luck. All my kids, and their families come, each going to bring something on the table and we're going to celebrate Mother's Day. That's how we're going to celebrate. We're just going to love one another and express it. That's my Saturday and Sunday. INTERVIEWER: You lead a rather full life, don't you? NARRATOR: Absolutely. Always have. INTERVIEWER: And how old are you? NARRATOR: I'm 66 years old. I was born February 11, 1923. INTERVIEWER: When you get past middle age, you'll have to slow down a little, won't you? NARRATOR: I've been thinking about that. But I'm getting ready to go to school to learn to use the computer, electric typewriter, because I retired before I got into my office. So I'm going out because I'm going to write a book. It's going to be entitled "All My Children and Then Some". I've had so many children. I need a chapter for each of the children who have done outstanding work. They too are doing work to help others. Pulling others up. Encouraging others. INTERVIEWER: I think that must be one of the most rewarding, not only to see that they themselves have turned out well, but that they are carrying on. INTERVIEWER: I have one other question here. You spoke of meditation. Does your day include an hour of meditation every morning? NARRATOR: One hour every morning and a half an hour of physical exercise. Every morning. INTERVIEWER: You get up at what time? NARRATOR: This morning I got up at 3:30 because I couldn't sleep. INTERVIEWER: What time do you generally get up? NARRATOR: 5:30, a quarter to six. I go quietly, I have a prayer room. I have a special room, called a prayer room and I go into that and I have six different things. I read a book called One Day at a Time. Every day it has a reading. Then I read, my Bible is broken up into a daily reading. I read the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, Proverbs and Psalms in every day's reading. Then after that I read a little daily book called Daily Blessings. Then I read the Daily Word. Each day it has something. Then I read another bit of reading, each day it has a thought. Sometimes they run together and then the last two things. I write to the Lord, I write my prayers, all my concerns, all my thankfulness, all that's on my mind, I write everyday to the Lord in two different. I have two journals. This is what keeps me sane. INTERVIEWER: You feel very grateful for the blessings. NARRATOR: Extremely grateful that he uses me. I realize that. INTERVIEWER: And you find that in giving, you receive. NARRATOR: Absolutely. Every time I hug, I get a hug. Every time. That's the joy of life. INTERVIEWER: When you came to Arlington at the end of World War II, this was a segregated society. NARRATOR: Yes it was. INTERVIEWER: Very segregated. And for someone who had grown up further north, it must have been more so than you found in Pennsylvania or New Jersey. NARRATOR: It was there too, but I didn't know it until I came here. They told me it was just as bad there, because I couldn't go to certain theatres, I had to go upstairs at theatres. I couldn't go to certain restaurants. INTERVIEWER: In Pennsylvania? NARRATOR: In Pennsylvania, yes. In Pittsburgh. INTERVIEWER: I know it was segregated here in Arlington. Now over the years, especially with the Civil Rights Act in the 60's and whatnot, things have changed a lot. Could you give us some of your comments and observations on how you think this has changed, where it has changed, generally, I suppose for the better, but presumably there may have been a loss of community of some sort with that. Whatever you feel like saying. NARRATOR: There are two sides to all changes I'm sure. Segregated Hoffman Boston High School, you could walk through the halls and hear a pin drop. There was tremendous respect for the teachers. There was no such thing as talking back to a teacher or getting smart aleck. Even the mode of dress was disciplined. The teachers cared about the children and I was a part of all that. We did, you had your little group that you worked with. INTERVIEWER: You say you were a part of it. Because your children were in there? Or because you lived so close to it? NARRATOR: I lived right, you couldn't help it, you were a part of it. Now another thing, in those early years, in the forties when we were here, in the fifties when the teachers came up from Virginia State College at the time in Petersburg to do their practice teaching here at Hoffman Boston, there was no such thing as living in any hotel. They lived in the private homes and I had the biggest house in the community. They lived in my house. If three of them came, whatever, all those children, I kept them up over the years. Anytime they came they lived in my home. Visiting preacher came, he lived in my home. If the visiting anybody came up, speaker or whatever came in town, they lived in my home. We didn't think anything about it, that was marvelous to have that kind of thing until later years when you can go into the hotel. But we marched. We marched up Columbia Pike to get into little Edith's, there was something on Columbia Pike across from Safeway, Edith's and something, it was an all night little eatery. INTERVIEWER: That diner? NARRATOR: Diner. Bob and Edith's. We had paraded up and down because we couldn't even, we had to go in there and pick up something and walk out of the place. That type of thing. That broke down a little at a time. INTERVIEWER: So in the early days, there was no place in Arlington you could eat? You could go out and eat? NARRATOR: No, there was a place in Green Valley called Dunmoven on Glebe Road. Big House. People came from all over Washington and Maryland for that home cooking. They called it Dunmoven. The Hawkins family. INTERVIEWER: Was that related to Mr. Hawkins, the beekeeper? NARRATOR: No, they were not. But they lived right there where Archie built the townhouses on Glebe Road, right there at 21st, 22nd, something like that and Glebe Road. I remember that's how we had to eat. No, when we traveled we had to carry the bag on the train or the buses. I guess we walked up Columbia Pike to everything, go to the market and what not. But to the theatre, we went to Washington, to the Lincoln Theatre and to the Howard Theatre. I remember my daughter being downtown and having to go to the bathroom and in Hecht's Department Store. I had to take her out in the car and go to a gas station and beg the man to give me a key and let me go to the bathroom. She couldn't understand that. She was about eight years old then. But you know, do you remember Philip Broom? In those early years, Philip Broom would pull all the black choirs together and they would meet at Mount Zion and we would have a Christmas sing. Philip Broom did it for years and years and years. He did that kind of thing. It was segregated. We were raising funds for Christmas seals or something, whatever he was doing. But every year Philip Broom had this, I think eventually we did it with the whites, I believe, but I don't remember. But you know we did this in such a way that I can't even remember, in the building we had a lot of white contact. I have friends, come close to me now, I'm very emotional. We've talked, we've come to meet, the years have known us. We work together very well. I had no problem, being a young woman, I was twenty five years old and starting out in the business, I never had a problem. They respected me, the supervisors, the superintendent, and we did very well. INTERVIEWER: So do you think that to some extent it was your own attitude of confidence and openness and willingness to love and perhaps be loved that made fewer problems for you than someone who goes in either apprehensive or with a chip on his shoulder? NARRATOR: Yes. We were able to open up financing in First Federal across from the Courthouse, First Federal Savings and Loan, what was his name, how can I ever forget, who was the head of the bank there? I can just picture him. But Jones and all of them knew our family. We were able to get the loans for building the houses. We're the ones who did all the financing that kind of way. Made the contacts. Helped people figure out their budget and how to work it out. My county background allowed us to help the people to work out their own finances. INTERVIEWER: As they were buying houses. NARRATOR: Oh yes, we helped them all the way. We kept it going. We'd take your money and get his started and keep moving. I did have the knowledge, I think I'm a superior manager. I can manage anything. Because I had to start off with my mother with seven children as the oldest child. I've been managing all of my life. It's very natural for me. INTERVIEWER: Did you send your children to the Arlington schools? NARRATOR: Yes, indeed. INTERVIEWER: And do you think they got a good education? NARRATOR: My daughter finished the last class at Hoffman Boston so I know she got an especially good education. When my son, I'm going to tell you the difference now. In segregation and the difference in our children. When my son went to Wakefield, it was more lax. He was the only child that didn't go to college. I wish I had known then what I know now. He was artistically inclined. He was an interior decorator. I would have sent him to an art school. But I didn't know that. He never got the education, he tried to get it through correspondence or whatever. It was too lax. Kids got smart and just talking back to teachers and whatever. It was different. It did not have the same discipline. They lost that completely. INTERVIEWER: Do you think that integration was bad then? Do you think that the overall result was good but there were sad things? NARRATOR: Yes. But I think they forgot struggle. When you're struggling, you make efforts. They no longer are struggling. Things are open. How can you tell them what you've been through? They don't understand it, they don't want to hear that. That's the problem. There's no more struggle, there's no more push. Too easy. School is too easy now, they can walk the halls, they can get out without even having to read and write. INTERVIEWER: I hope that some of these efforts to make more stringent requirements not only for the teachers but particularly for the students will bear some fruit eventually. Do you have some other comments that you want to make, Margarite? NARRATOR: I was with my husband his last days and he never gave up hope until the Tuesday before he died, I said to him, the nurse said to me if there's anything I want to say I should say to him or ask him and I never asked him was he dying. I said to him, "Honey, are you going home to be with the Lord?" I think he was relieved. He shook his head, from then on he completely relaxed. I was with him when he took his last breath, but before he died when he was still conscious, I thanked him for the team life that we lived. That he took me right along with him. He was far more academically educated than I was, I had a whole lot of common sense though. But he was able to allow me to grow, he made way for me to grow. He allowed me to be a part of everything he did, pushed me on. I think as a team getting the inner joy out of seeing so much fruit from our work and being a team together, I thanked him very much for that. So many people now are different than norm because of our teamwork together. He was an excellent father, therefore he made me a good mother. We were concerned about the children. He was concerned until his dying day about this last child I had. I watched him take his last breath and I have not cried since his going home, because it was not a death, it was going home, the body was ugly and terrible, but the spirit, he had that tremendous spirit. It was strong. I have not had a sad moment since his going home. I feel his warmth, I feel him all around me, we had so many marvelous memories. We took a community of kids to vacations up to black resorts down in Bowling Green, people who'd never had the experience. We had the joy of taking kids to the restaurants for the first time. Marriott was the first time we could take them to one, when they opened up at Twin Bridges and let them learn how to make reservations and how to take a group in and be seated, and the joy of teaching how to properly eat and how to present yourself. The goodies of life. I enjoy teaching. I'm a natural teacher and I love to teach. Then you get excited when you see the fruits of your work coming back. I am grateful for the opportunities that I had and I can't give enough back. My whole life is giving. That's all I know. I'm at peace. I don't want any great possessions. I'm at peace with people. I think that's the greatest, most marvelous value that we have with one another. INTERVIEWER: Well, I think that this is indicated when a person looks at your face. You look as if you are at peace with yourself. I think that a person's character and desires are reflected to a great deal in how they look. Their eyes, their mouth, I think it shows. INTERVIEWER: I believe some of this has come out in this interview. INTERVIEWER: We thank you very much, Margarite, for taking the time from your very, very, very busy schedule. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-May-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm19890511.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/66074897a4c4a834d43f863f6d9ad6af.mp3 61c9728b5c7fffd8fe2287326efa4ad7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reflecting on Desegregation Clip - Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-May-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm198905_Reflecting on Desegregation Clip.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax on May 11, 1989, regarding her reflections on desegregation. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. https://projectdaps.org/files/original/1a1e08ff62282feade5d2f301557751d.pdf daa437d65abb43e68e227a07a6d96a5f PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Margarite Reed Syphax INTERVIEWER: Cocklin/Campbell DATE: May 11, 1989 Reflecting on Desegregation Clip INTERVIEWER: [01:06:51] Did you send your children to the Arlington schools? NARRATOR: Yes, indeed. INTERVIEWER: And do you think they got a good education? NARRATOR: My daughter finished the last class at Hoffman Boston so I know she got an especially good education. When my son, I'm going to tell you the difference now. In segregation and the difference in our children. When my son went to Wakefield, it was more lax. He was the only child that didn't go to college. I wish I had known then what I know now. He was artistically inclined. He was an interior decorator. I would have sent him to an art school. But I didn't know that. He never got the education, he tried to get it through correspondence or whatever. It was too lax. Kids got smart and just talking back to teachers and whatever. It was different. It did not have the same discipline. They lost that completely. INTERVIEWER: Do you think that integration was bad then? Do you think that the overall result was good but there were sad things? NARRATOR: Yes. But I think they forgot struggle. When you're struggling, you make efforts. They no longer are struggling. Things are open. How can you tell them what you've been through? They don't understand it, they don't want to hear that. That's the problem. There's no more struggle, there's no more push. Too easy. School is too easy now, they can walk the halls, they can get out without even having to read and write. [01:08:31.5] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reflecting on Desegregation Clip - Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax on May 11, 1989, regarding her reflections on desegregation. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05-11-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm198905_Reflecting on Desegregation Clip Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/a0ca5aa1f17b3c6c3d0db4cb45ccf241.mp3 d3aba92ea020217ed12642965bd07cce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregation and Hoffman-Boston Clip - Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax on May 11, 1989, regarding her reflections on Hoffman-Boston. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-May-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm198905_Segregation and Hoffman Boston Clip.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/239abb3509a14711e97a5bf5c08ca923.pdf 04bbc90e1c4dc4c04595a03fed6e75d4 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Margarite Reed Syphax INTERVIEWER: Cocklin/Campbell DATE: May 11, 1989 Segregation and Hoffman Boston Clip INTERVIEWER: [01:00:22.4] I know it was segregated here in Arlington. Now over the years, especially with the Civil Rights Act in the 60's and whatnot, things have changed a lot. Could you give us some of your comments and observations on how you think this has changed, where it has changed, generally, I suppose for the better, but presumably there may have been a loss of community of some sort with that. Whatever you feel like saying. NARRATOR: There are two sides to all changes I'm sure. Segregated Hoffman Boston High School, you could walk through the halls and hear a pin drop. There was tremendous respect for the teachers. There was no such thing as talking back to a teacher or getting smart aleck. Even the mode of dress was disciplined. The teachers cared about the children and I was a part of all that. We did, you had your little group that you worked with. INTERVIEWER: You say you were a part of it. Because your children were in there? Or because you lived so close to it? NARRATOR: I lived right, you couldn't help it, you were a part of it. Now another thing, in those early years, in the forties when we were here, in the fifties when the teachers came up from Virginia State College at the time in Petersburg to do their practice teaching here at Hoffman Boston, there was no such thing as living in any hotel. They lived in the private homes and I had the biggest house in the community. They lived in my house. If three of them came, whatever, all those children, I kept them up over the years. Anytime they came they lived in my home. Visiting preacher came, he lived in my home. If the visiting anybody came up, speaker or whatever came in town, they lived in my home. We didn't think anything about it, that was marvelous to have that kind of thing until later years when you can go into the hotel. But we marched. We marched up Columbia Pike to get into little Edith's, there was something on Columbia Pike across from Safeway, Edith's and something, it was an all night little eatery. INTERVIEWER: That diner? NARRATOR: Diner. Bob and Edith's. We had paraded up and down because we couldn't even, we had to go in there and pick up something and walk out of the place. That type of thing. That broke down a little at a time. INTERVIEWER: So in the early days, there was no place in Arlington you could eat? You could go out and eat? NARRATOR: No, there was a place in Green Valley called Dunmoven on Glebe Road. Big House. People came from all over Washington and Maryland for that home cooking. They called it Dunmoven. The Hawkins family. INTERVIEWER: Was that related to Mr. Hawkins, the beekeeper? NARRATOR: No, they were not. But they lived right there where Archie built the townhouses on Glebe Road, right there at 21st, 22nd, something like that and Glebe Road. I remember that's how we had to eat. No, when we traveled we had to carry the bag on the train or the buses. I guess we walked up Columbia Pike to everything, go to the market and what not. But to the theatre, we went to Washington, to the Lincoln Theatre and to the Howard Theatre. I remember my daughter being downtown and having to go to the bathroom and in Hecht's Department Store. I had to take her out in the car and go to a gas station and beg the man to give me a key and let me go to the bathroom. She couldn't understand that. She was about eight years old then. But you know, do you remember Philip Broom? In those early years, Philip Broom would pull all the black choirs together and they would meet at Mount Zion and we would have a Christmas sing. Philip Broom did it for years and years and years. He did that kind of thing. It was segregated. We were raising funds for Christmas seals or something, whatever he was doing. But every year Philip Broom had this, I think eventually we did it with the whites, I believe, but I don't remember. But you know we did this in such a way that I can't even remember, in the building we had a lot of white contact. I have friends, come close to me now, I'm very emotional. We've talked, we've come to meet, the years have known us. We work together very well. I had no problem, being a young woman, I was twenty five years old and starting out in the business, I never had a problem. They respected me, the supervisors, the superintendent, and we did very well. [01:05:21.7] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregation and Hoffman-Boston Clip - Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Margarite Syphax on May 11, 1989, regarding her reflections on Hoffman-Boston. Interviewers are Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-May-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm198905_Segregation and Hoffman Boston Clip.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margarite Syphax Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:12:49 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 172kbs Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Margarite Syphax, May 11, 1989 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Margarite Reed Syphax moved to Arlington in 1947 with her husband William Syphax. The pair were active members of Mt. Olive Baptist Church and created their own construction and property management company, building custom homes and offices throughout the greater metropolitan area. Along with her business enterprise, Ms. Syphax was involved in community development through music, education and more. She was interviewed by Cas Cocklin and Edmund Campbell on May 11, 1989, and the oral history is available here in its audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from the interview regarding her memories of the strength of Hoffman-Boston and the Nauck community during the years of segregation, and her reflections on the impacts of desegregation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margarite Reed Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-May-89 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxm198905 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/d41a53d7fa3b242ffa70ab2d4c2a4361.mp3 fddc00ae438ba6e86bda00e6886e93bf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/2fe27ffbe9397e295be72ba18324c05a.pdf f606be07ddcc6eeb4e1208e4d3b10a8d PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Evelyn Syphax INTERVIEWER: Edmund Campbell DATE: February 9, 1984 INTERVIEWER: This is Edmund Campbell speaking from the Arlington Library – Oral History project. I have the distinct privilege today of having the opportunity to interview Mrs. Evelyn Syphax of 1530 South 13th Street in Arlington, Virginia, a longtime resident of Arlington, who has been a teacher for many years in the Arlington public schools and who has served with distinction, and is still serving with distinction as a member of the Arlington School Board, and who was in Arlington during the hectic period both before and after the Brown against Board of Education Decision of the Supreme Court in 1954. Mrs. Syphax, it is a real privilege to have you with us today. When did you first come to Arlington? NARRATOR: I came to Arlington August 1951 for my first assignment at Langston School on Lee Highway. INTERVIEWER: Were you married then? NARRATOR: No, I was not. INTERVIEWER: When did you get married? NARRATOR: I got married March 31, 1956. INTERVIEWER: Do you mind telling me when you were born? NARRATOR: I was born June 3, 1926. INTERVIEWER: And in what city? NARRATOR: Lynchburg, Virginia --- a hilly town. INTERVIEWER: It is a hilly town all right. You came to Arlington specifically to accept a position in the Langston School? NARRATOR: I came here not knowing what the assignment would be, where the assignment would be, but it was to teach. INTERVIEWER: You were engaged by the new elected School Board then? NARRATOR: That is correct. INTERVIEWER: And Langston School, as I recall was an all Negro school at the time. NARRATOR: That is correct. INTERVIEWER: And it was located in what is commonly known as Halls Hill? NARRATOR: It was called Halls Hill at that time. It is now Highview Park. INTERVIEWER: Yes. It was just fronting on Lee Highway, wasn’t it? NARRATOR: Yes it was. INTERVIEWER: And just west of Glebe Road, about one or two blocks west of Glebe Road. It was what we call a neighborhood elementary school? NARRATOR: Yes it was. INTERVIEWER: It had six grades? NARRATOR: It had six grades. INTERVIEWER: And the Hall’s Hill neighborhood as it was then called was –- was it fenced off from 18th Street? NARRATOR: 17th Street. There was a fence on 17th street that separated it from the other area, which was called the white area, the other was called the colored area. INTERVIEWER: And the Hall’s Hill area at that time was called the colored area? NARRATOR: That’s correct. INTERVIEWER: How long were you at Langston School? NARRATOR: I left December 1957. INTERVIEWER: During the period when you were at Langston School, do you recall who was superintendent of schools? NARRATOR: When I came here, Dr. William Early was the Superintendent. INTERVIEWER: Did you, aside from the great burden of segregation which every Negro must have felt, did you sense a feeling on the part of the new elected school board that the were trying to improve the lot of Langston? NARRATOR: Well, at that time the schools were separate and unequal, but we felt that the trend was eventually changing to be more sensitive to the students in the black schools, at that time called colored schools, because the Superintendent, Mr. Early, had made a public statement that segregated schools were very expensive. At that time the teachers were not meeting together for the beginning of school orientation. INTERVIEWER: You mean the white and black teachers were not meeting together? NARRATOR: They were not. The letters would go out for the white teachers to meet one day and the letters would go out to the black teachers to meet one day. INTERVIEWER: Did you have a supervisor simply for the black schools? NARRATOR: Yes, we did. INTERVIEWER: And her name was what? NARRATOR: Mrs. Claudia Pitts, and she was the Supervisor for all schools where black children and black teachers worked. That was for the entire Arlington County. But she had come to Arlington in 1936 as a math (black) teacher, and was then given the job of supervising. INTERVIEWER: I cannot resist an interlude here. My wife, Elizabeth Campbell, was at the time a member of the Arlington School Board, in fact, she was the first woman elected to the School Board in the State or Virginia, and she wanted to have a meeting with all of the supervisors of the Arlington schools. She wanted to have a luncheon meeting, and she found out that it was impossible under Virginia law and impracticable if not impossible under District of Columbia practice to find a restaurant that would accommodate and seat both white and black supervisors at the same table, and so Mrs. Campbell did this –- and I think she was glad to do it anyway –- she arranged to have them all come to her home, our home, at 2912 North Glebe Road in Arlington, as her guests and as luncheon was served so she could discuss matters involving their specific duties as supervisors of the Arlington schools. INTERVIEWER: You were later transferred to Hoffman-Boston School? NARRATOR: After the birth of my first child, I asked for a transfer to be closer to home, and I lived in the Hoffman-Boston area and they granted my request. INTERVIEWER: That was Hoffman-Boston? NARRATOR: Yes, it was named after two former principals. INTERVIEWER: What was the condition of the Hoffman-Boston school when you got there? NARRATOR: The elementary division was separate from the main building. INTERVIEWER: It had an elementary school that was –- NARRATOR: --that was built in 1951. INTERVIEWER: And it had an elementary division of grades 1 to 6 and a high school division separate? NARRATOR: Junior high school and senior high school were combined in one building. Prior to 1951, they were all in one building. INTERVIEWER: You have spoken of the fact that the junior and senior high school students were combined in one building. NARRATOR: That’s right. INTERVIEWER: AS a matter of fact in most of the Arlington area by that time, separate junior high schools had been erected for white children, had they not? NARRATOR: That’s correct. INTERVIEWER: And Hoffman-Boston was the only building in which both the junior and senior high schools were combined? NARRATOR: That’s right. It was the only high School for black children. INTERVIEWER: And so at that time student from grades 7 to 12 attended Hoffman-Boston High School, while in the white areas students in 7, 8, and 9 attended junior high schools in the white area, and only 10, 11, and 12 attended white high schools in Arlington, is that correct? NARRATOR: That’s correct. INTERVIEWER: Did you find the teaching staff and the supervisory work and the principal of the Hoffman-Boston School were of a caliber that could give good education under the proper circumstances? NARRATOR: Yes, the principal that was there during my time came to Arlington at the same time I did; in August of 1951 there were 5 black teachers hired in Arlington County. INTERVIEWER: what was his name? NARRATOR: Mr. George Melvin Richardson from Oklahoma. INTERVIEWER: He was principal of Hoffman-Boston for how many years? NARRATOR: He left in 19, I believe it was 1970. He didn’t leave Hoffman-Boston, he left the county. When Hoffman-Boston closed in 1963, he went over to Wakefield as Assistant Superintendent and principal. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned the date when you went to Hoffman-Boston High School, but I’ve forgotten what it was. NARRATOR: December 1957. INTERVIEWER: That was 3 years after the case of Brown against Board of Education had been decided by the Supreme Court in which the Supreme Court mandated that all schools be desegregated with all deliberate speed. What had been done in Arlington at that time toward desegregating the schools? NARRATOR: Well, nothing was done at all in the year 1954 – that was May 17, 1954. Nothing was done in ’54 or “55, but in 1963, the -- INTERVIEWER: No –- I don’t want to get to 1963 yet. You do recall the Arlington School Board making the public statement that it intended to desegregate the schools, do you not? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And I believe that statement was made, was it not, in early 1956, or do you know? NARRATOR: I don’t remember the ear. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember the reaction that the legislature made to that statement? NARRATOR: I do remember there was resistance on the part of the State as a result of a visit of some Arlington officials. INTERVIEWER: They also voted to abolish the elected School Board. Virginia then adopted the so-called massive resistance law, which provided that if any school shoelace be order desegregated by the Federal court, that before its desegregation took place, it would be automatically removed from the jurisdiction of the school boards and placed in the hands of the Governor who would hold legal title to it, and that the Governor would thereupon close the school in the community entirely. As a result of that massive resistance law, schools were closed in certain areas, do you remember where they were? NARRATOR: Yes, Farmville, Virginia closed their schools and I cannot recall the name of the other communities. INTERVIEWER: Front Royal, Charlottesville, and Norfolk. And it as on January 19, 1959 that the Supreme Court of Virginia and the Federal Court for the Eastern District of Norfolk, sitting as a three judge court, declared the massive resistance laws to be unconstitutional. INTERVIEWER: After the desegregation of Stratford School in January 1959, what took place in the schools generally as far as desegregation was concerned? NARRATOR: Well nothing other than at Stratford Junior High because they were the only one –- INTERVIEWER: For how long? NARRATOR: In 1959, three or four more students went over to Stratford. INTERVIEWER: The next Fall? NARRATOR: The next Fall – 3 or 4, I’m not quite sure – and then when those students, the first four, reached the 9th grade, they completed the 9th grade there –- INTERVIEWER: Ready to go to high school? NARRATOR: Ready to go to high school –- they did go to Washington and Lee. INTERVIEWER: Were other students meanwhile admitted – other black students to other schools? NARRATOR: Not in other schools, no. There were some admitted to Stratford from the North Arlington area, and there were some admitted to Washington Lee from the North Arlington area – that is the schools. INTERVIEWER: Well, when were they admitted to other schools? NARRATOR: 1971. INTERVIEWER: Not until another ten years, in fact. NARRATOR: That is right – 1971, when we had total integration of the schools as the result of court orders. INTERVIEWER: You mean from 1960 to 1971 there were no Negro student in any schools except Stratford? In any schools that had previously been called all white? NARRATOR: Washington and Lee. INTERVIEWER: Washington and Lee. They would not ordinarily have gone into any of the other schools under the, shall I call it the neighborhood zone plans, because of their location, except in busing instances, is that right? NARRATOR: Right –- well, housing patterns determine a great deal as to where you were going, but there was one student who lived in North Arlington who did go over to Yorktown, in 1967, I believe it was. INTERVIEWER: But during the period from 1960 to 1970, there was de facto segregation except in Stratford Junior High School and in Washington in Lee, and except for this one student who live in the Yorktown area? But that was due to housing patterns primarily, was it not? NARRATOR: Right. But that student lived in North Arlington in the Hall’s Hill area. She lived on one side of Lee Highway that was different from the other side which was Hall's Hill. INTERVIEWER: But was permitted to go to Yorktown. NARRATOR: Was permitted to go to Yorktown. She was the only black student. INTERVIEWER: Now you speak of 1970 and 1971 having increased the number of black students going to previously all-white schools –- was that as a result of busing orders? NARRATOR: Yes. Busing came into being then and in 1971. That September, the neighborhood schools in the black communities were closed and students were bused to other localities to achieve integration, and some of those students stayed on the busses, I thought, too long, and not until last fall – ‘82-83 school year – was it addressed, and I addressed it. INTERVIEWER: Did you feel that busing was carried too far, shall I call it? NARRATOR: I don’t think – you’re not talking about distance –- INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: Yes, I did. I think they bused children from South Arlington, extreme South, to extreme North and they stayed on the bus too long, which meant they could not participate in any after-school activities because the bus leaves at a certain time, and if they were going to participate in after-school activities, they didn’t have any way of getting home because parents were at work and they couldn’t come up there. The parents could not participate in PTA because they got off from work too late. INTERVIEWER: If you have busing, and I think we all agree that a certain amount of busing is desirable to integrate the schools, you would put limits on it from the point of distance? NARRATOR: Yes, I would. INTERVIEWER: You think there is a danger in sacrificing some education for the sake of integration, compete integration, if the busing is carried too far in distance? NARRATOR: I wouldn’t say sacrifice in education, but I think those students who are riding such a long distance are tired out by the time they get there, and they probably need a breakfast. INTERVIEWER: That’s exactly what I mean. NARRATOR: Yes, they are tired, they’ve been on a bus a long time, we don’t know how long they have been up, their parents have left them and gone to work, and I think this is a tragic situation... INTERVIEWER: There is an argument between those that say there should be neighborhood schools and those who say that there should be busing into neighborhood schools even at the expense of the loss of neighborhood. Have you any comment that you would like to make on that? NARRATOR: I think busing is necessary to achieve integration because of the housing pattern, and until the housing patterns change completely, which will not be in my lifetime, we’re going to have to bus to achieve because –-what I don’t agree with is that the black students have to always be busing to white neighborhoods. I certainly think that some white students should be bused into the black neighborhood. But that is not going to happen in my lifetime. INTERVIEWER: Have there been any white children bused to black neighborhoods in Arlington? NARRATOR: For the alternative program. Drew school is in a black neighborhood, but that is an alternative school – a model school. Yes, they are bused in to go to that school. INTERVIEWER: To a model school? But not to a neighborhood school. NARRATOR: Not to a neighborhood school, no. INTERVIEWER: --Or not to a high school? NARRATOR: Not to a high school. INTERVIEWER: There came a time, Mrs. Syphax, when you were appointed to the School Board, were you not? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And who appointed you? NARRATOR: Mrs. Dorothy Grotos. INTERVIEWER: A member of the Arlington County Board? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And when was that? NARRATOR: July 1, 1980 was when I took my seat, but she made the appointment on April 12, 1980. INTERVIEWER: And you have served continuously as a member of the Arlington County School Board since that time? NARRATOR: Yes, and I have enjoyed it very much. I felt I could help in some small way. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure you have helped in a great many ways and still are. You became Chairperson of the School Board, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, I did – in 1982. INTERVIEWER: And served a year? NARRATOR: I served one year. INTERVIEWER: What comments, if any, can you make on your services as a School Board member and your particular contributions as a School Board member? NARRATOR: I felt that I could represent a point of view that was not there, although I was interested in improving the quality of education for all students. It became necessary for me to focus on a minority of our school population that has not been addressed. There had been programs developed for non-English speaking students but the black population, which was a minority, had been there longer that the non-English speaking students and yet we were not developing programs to improve their quality of education, and therefore a lot of them need up in special classes, which I didn’t quite agree with. It gave me an opportunity as a School Board member to address those issues from the proper point of view, and to give the people of Arlington County an opportunity to take a look at what was really happening in the public schools for the minority population. I do believe that we have to provide for the non-English speaking minorities. It is absolutely for us to do so because they are heavily impacted in this area, but we should not forget that there was a population of minorities here before they came who still need our attention, who still need us to focus on improving their quality of education. It was an unpleasant task for me to have to address minority staffing, affirmative action, reduced busing, consolidation of schools, but it was necessary to do it, and I do feel that I did accomplish a great deal to focus on it, because now I think people are aware. INTERVIEWER: Mrs. Syphax, can you give me an explanation of why, on the average with certain outstanding exceptions, black students in Arlington have performed less well in education in the public schools than white students, a matter which I think encourages, rather than discourages, the sense of prejudice on the part of white people? NARRATOR: It has been a pattern over the years for black students to feel an inferiority complex, and in their homes there are many families who cannot afford, or do they afford, a newspaper or magazine of any sort; therefore, our students are not exposed to the same type of experiences or reading matter. Neither do they get encouragement from their parents to participate in activities that would provide those types of experiences. They’re not encouraged to go to the library, they’re not encouraged to subscribe to magazines, and therefore they are not equipped to deal with many of things that are going to appear on the test. Our scores are low and I’m hoping that eventually we will do a lot to change that, but until we can get students who do not have to work after school and do not have to help at home in getting the house ready and things like that because their parents work, preparing the meals and washing clothes, doing those things, they won’t have the time to do the things that are necessary to prepare them for the standardized tests that are being given in our schools. INTERVIEWER: I take it also that there is that sense of lack of ambition to excel in educational matters, that they have inherited from their fathers and mothers and that their fathers and mothers inherited from their grandparents who were slaves when Virginia had a law prohibiting education on the part of black. NARRATOR: It’s inherent, I think. INTERVIEWER: Inherited I mean from the point of view of culture, not genetically. NARRATOR: I understand, yes. It is a culture that has been passed down through the years and until there is a vast revolutionary change, there is always going to always be. We’ve got to build the proper self-esteem – INTERVIEWER: When you say “we”, as blacks? NARRATOR: As blacks, yes, black population – and until we can provide these proper images, enough of them, which we have to do in our schools. That’s why I address minority staffing because there are so many schools that do not have any black staff; they have custodial help, but that is not the level that we’re trying to build for our students to achieve, and they must see us in the educational roles that we are capable of handling, and unless they do, then they’re going to feel that we have to accept the menial positions, we’re fourth and fifth class citizens, we are not supposed to be exposed to that – you’re not supposed to participate like that – that is for others. There’s a big job ahead of us. INTERVIEWER: That is the reason, I take it, that you favor affirmative action programs. NARRATOR: Definitely because of this. INTERVIEWER: To accelerated the removal of this discriminatory pattern of the generations? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And you think the affirmative action programs are helping on the whole? NARRATOR: I know they are. INTERVIEWER: In what way can they be of use, and in what manner would you use them in the Arlington Schools if you were the sole School Board member? NARRATOR: I would certainly focus on high range people of all the minorities, not just the blacks, because our schools have many minorities in them. I would focus on hiring people that qualify from different minority groups. INTERVIEWER: Well now you speak of different minority groups in Arlington. The other minority groups are primarily Asian and Spanish speaking, are they not? NARRATOR: Primarily yes. We have about 26 different ones, but there is 14% black population, 12% Asian and 9% Hispanic, although I do believe that the Hispanic is going to soon have the largest, because there are more coming in this year; but the last report that we have from Civil Rights was the three that I gave you. But I think we’re going to have to have, in all of the minorities, so that we can build an image for each of them. I don’t think it should just focus on the black professionals. We need to have someone who can relate to the students in that building and since there are some schools that have no blacks, no Asians, no Hispanics or other minorities on their staff, it’s going to be difficult for them to do that. I do say that the black population has been there longer than the others so therefore we should have somebody there – we should have had somebody all along, but we don’t – and until we can enforce an affirmative action plan in the public schools of Arlington, it will not be. INTERVIEWER: Now, do you mean an affirmative action plan in hiring teachers? NARRATOR: In hiring not just teachers, but professionals staff, administrators, principals, people who are in administrative positions, helping teachers, curriculum specialists, not just teachers, but we need to have a wide range. INTERVIEWER: Do you think the effect of that will be to help encourage the black students to perform better? NARRATOR: I certainly feel that way. INTERVIEWER: And will also enable them to more effectively handle the discipline in their schools? NARRATOR: I do – I definitely do. People that have role models I think discipline would improve. INTERVIEWER: Have you any final comment that you would like to make on either the School Board or the Arlington County Government? We have a pretty good form of government here, do we not? NARRATOR: I think so, and I think that they are focusing on affirmative action – I am delighted that that has happened. I feel that there is a great sense of providing equal opportunities for all races, and I am just as happy as I can be to see it happening here in Arlington. I do think that until it is on the conscience of the people, it will not happen, and I do think that’s happening at the top now. The people who are in power are realizing that there is a need for affirmative action. I do thank Mrs. Grotos for giving me the opportunity to serve on the School Board and I do feel that I have been able of effect some changes that were positive for the children of Arlington County and I hope the whoever serves after me will be able to make a great contribution for the public schools of Arlington. INTERVIEWER: Thank you, Mrs. Syphax. You are a great asset to the community of Arlington, and the School Board has been fortunate to have you as a member. This interview was conducted in the Arlington Library on February 9, 1984. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c1678c81ac9c5e46a4495beb0d4034a6.mp3 0a57e32246df4648de8050e76e707ca6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource School Busing Clip - Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984, regarding her reflections on School Busing. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209_School Busing Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/d42791f15380441b31126a9bbbc497e3.pdf b2f42759f80ed14bc6b29cda523b8f9f PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Evelyn Syphax INTERVIEWER: Edmund Campbell DATE: February 9, 1984 School Busing Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:17:24.5] After the desegregation of Stratford School in January 1959, what took place in the schools generally as far as desegregation was concerned? NARRATOR: Well nothing other than at Stratford Junior High because they were the only one –- INTERVIEWER: For how long? NARRATOR: In 1959, three or four more students went over to Stratford. INTERVIEWER: The next Fall? NARRATOR: The next Fall – 3 or 4, I’m not quite sure – and then when those students, the first four, reached the 9th grade, they completed the 9th grade there –- INTERVIEWER: Ready to go to high school? NARRATOR: Ready to go to high school –- they did go to Washington and Lee. INTERVIEWER: Were other students meanwhile admitted – other black students to other schools? NARRATOR: Not in other schools, no. There were some admitted to Stratford from the North Arlington area, and there were some admitted to Washington Lee from the North Arlington area – that is the schools. INTERVIEWER: Well, when were they admitted to other schools? NARRATOR: 1971. INTERVIEWER: Not until another ten years, in fact. NARRATOR: That is right – 1971, when we had total integration of the schools as the result of court orders. INTERVIEWER: You mean from 1960 to 1971 there were no Negro student in any schools except Stratford? In any schools that had previously been called all white? NARRATOR: Washington and Lee. INTERVIEWER: Washington and Lee. They would not ordinarily have gone into any of the other schools under the, shall I call it the neighborhood zone plans, because of their location, except in busing instances, is that right? NARRATOR: Right –- well, housing patterns determine a great deal as to where you were going, but there was one student who lived in North Arlington who did go over to Yorktown, in 1967, I believe it was. INTERVIEWER: But during the period from 1960 to 1970, there was de facto segregation except in Stratford Junior High School and in Washington and Lee, and except for this one student who live in the Yorktown area? But that was due to housing patterns primarily, was it not? NARRATOR: Right. But that student lived in North Arlington in the Hall’s Hill area. She lived on one side of Lee Highway that was different from the other side which was Hall's Hill. INTERVIEWER: But was permitted to go to Yorktown. NARRATOR: Was permitted to go to Yorktown. She was the only black student. INTERVIEWER: Now you speak of 1970 and 1971 having increased the number of black students going to previously all-white schools –- was that as a result of busing orders? NARRATOR: Yes. Busing came into being then and in 1971. That September, the neighborhood schools in the black communities were closed and students were bused to other localities to achieve integration, and some of those students stayed on the busses, I thought, too long, and not until last fall – ‘82-83 school year – was it addressed, and I addressed it. INTERVIEWER: Did you feel that busing was carried too far, shall I call it? NARRATOR: I don’t think – you’re not talking about distance –- INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: Yes, I did. I think they bused children from South Arlington, extreme South, to extreme North and they stayed on the bus too long, which meant they could not participate in any after-school activities because the bus leaves at a certain time, and if they were going to participate in after-school activities, they didn’t have any way of getting home because parents were at work and they couldn’t come up there. The parents could not participate in PTA because they got off from work too late. INTERVIEWER: If you have busing, and I think we all agree that a certain amount of busing is desirable to integrate the schools, you would put limits on it from the point of distance? NARRATOR: Yes, I would. INTERVIEWER: You think there is a danger in sacrificing some education for the sake of integration, compete integration, if the busing is carried too far in distance? NARRATOR: I wouldn’t say sacrifice in education, but I think those students who are riding such a long distance are tired out by the time they get there, and they probably need a breakfast. INTERVIEWER: That’s exactly what I mean. NARRATOR: Yes, they are tired, they’ve been on a bus a long time, we don’t know how long they have been up, their parents have left them and gone to work, and I think this is a tragic situation... INTERVIEWER: There is an argument between those that say there should be neighborhood schools and those who say that there should be busing into neighborhood schools even at the expense of the loss of neighborhood. Have you any comment that you would like to make on that? NARRATOR: I think busing is necessary to achieve integration because of the housing pattern, and until the housing patterns change completely, which will not be in my lifetime, we’re going to have to bus to achieve because –-what I don’t agree with is that the black students have to always be busing to white neighborhoods. I certainly think that some white students should be bused into the black neighborhood. But that is not going to happen in my lifetime. INTERVIEWER: Have there been any white children bused to black neighborhoods in Arlington? NARRATOR: For the alternative program. Drew school is in a black neighborhood, but that is an alternative school – a model school. Yes, they are bused in to go to that school. INTERVIEWER: To a model school? But not to a neighborhood school. NARRATOR: Not to a neighborhood school, no. INTERVIEWER: --Or not to a high school? NARRATOR: Not to a high school. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource School Busing Clip - Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984, regarding her reflections on School Busing. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209_School Busing Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/4ac48afb34556d8acadc0cdb8c0f62a2.mp3 93a7ab7390a7b82c43d5ee2ed2d88f94 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregated Supervisors Clip - Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984, regarding her reflections on segregation of school personnel. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209_Segregated Supervisors Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/418c51f8f91a87fe02acde29bc1b2e9b.pdf 700cba05c310deaf3243dbac48428b0b PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Evelyn Syphax INTERVIEWER: Edmund Campbell DATE: February 9, 1984 Segregated Supervisors Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:04:40.5] Did you, aside from the great burden of segregation which every Negro must have felt, did you sense a feeling on the part of the new elected school board that they were trying to improve the lot of Langston? NARRATOR: Well, at that time the schools were separate and unequal, but we felt that the trend was eventually changing to be more sensitive to the students in the black schools, at that time called colored schools, because the Superintendent, Mr. Early, had made a public statement that segregated schools were very expensive. At that time the teachers were not meeting together for the beginning of school orientation. INTERVIEWER: You mean the white and black teachers were not meeting together? NARRATOR: They were not. The letters would go out for the white teachers to meet one day and the letters would go out to the black teachers to meet one day. INTERVIEWER: Did you have a supervisor simply for the black schools? NARRATOR: Yes, we did. INTERVIEWER: And her name was what? NARRATOR: Mrs. Claudia Pitts, and she was the Supervisor for all schools where black children and black teachers worked. That was for the entire Arlington County. But she had come to Arlington in 1936 as a math (black) teacher, and was then given the job of supervising. INTERVIEWER: I cannot resist an interlude here. My wife, Elizabeth Campbell, was at the time a member of the Arlington School Board, in fact, she was the first woman elected to the School Board in the State or Virginia, and she wanted to have a meeting with all of the supervisors of the Arlington schools. She wanted to have a luncheon meeting, and she found out that it was impossible under Virginia law and impracticable if not impossible under District of Columbia practice to find a restaurant that would accommodate and seat both white and black supervisors at the same table, and so Mrs. Campbell did this –- and I think she was glad to do it anyway –- she arranged to have them all come to her home, our home, at 2912 North Glebe Road in Arlington, as her guests and as luncheon was served so she could discuss matters involving their specific duties as supervisors of the Arlington schools. [00:08:17] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregated Supervisors Clip - Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Evelyn Syphax on February 9, 1984, regarding her reflections on segregation of school personnel. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209_Segregated Supervisors Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theda Nichols Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Evelyn Syphax Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:38:37 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 188kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Evelyn Syphax, February 9, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Evelyn Syphax came to Arlington as a teacher at the then-segregated, all-black Langston Elementary School. Ms. Syphax continued teaching and improving Arlington Schools; she was appointed to the School Board in 1980 and became Chairperson of the School Board in 1982. She was dedicated to educational opportunity for all students, and had a particular focus on the unique situation of black students in the county. She was interviewed by Edmund Campbell on February 9, 1984, and that oral history is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from the interview, regarding the segregation of schools at the personnel and administrative level as well as the impacts of busing. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Evelyn Syphax Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9-Feb-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context syphaxe19840209 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/edd3c8bf50603ca13febbeb488f7ce46.MP3 c5f11f243c6041fca1f1a42612c9b052 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, January 11, 2013, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Jan-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/227bf9119d2ce221934d12b2a7fff2e2.pdf 177c598ecbadec3c89fbae35b7d1ad97 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: George Melvin Richardson INTERVIEWER: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: John Stanton DATE: October 11, 2013 INTERVIEWER: [00:00:00] Today is Friday, October the 11th, 2013, and we’re at the home of Mr. George Melvin Richardson, who is the former principal of Hoffman-Boston School in Arlington. He’s being interviewed as part of the Center for Local History’s Oral History Project. The interviewers today are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. So Mr. Richardson, why don’t you just start by giving me just a little background? You’re from this area, you’re from Oklahoma, but tell me a little bit about your background. NARRATOR: I have so many beginnings. If you want to start with my family, I can start there -- INTERVIEWER: Sure, start with your family. Absolutely. NARRATOR: My father was born one year after the Emancipation Proclamation in 1864. And somehow he learned to read very early in life, and he started teaching, for many years, his friends. And he thought of it as a profession. The rest of his life [00:01:00] he tried to teach young people, his age group and older. And he was in Texas for a number of years, married, and had three children in Texas. They all died in a short time. And he heard about the run in Oklahoma, and he decided to go there and help to teach people there in Oklahoma. So he came to Oklahoma and he started teaching young people. And they wanted to start a school. It was Grayson, Oklahoma, all black city, county. And he taught there. First of all, he would do a subscription, they’d give a little money. And those who didn’t have money, they had produce -- they’d take that. And they had four children there at Grayson. And they heard about his work in [00:02:00] Holdenville, which is a larger city and more advanced situation. So he left Grayson and went to Holdenville, and had four children in Grayson and one in Holdenville. I was the last one; I was the only one in Holdenville. My brother was two years older than I was at the time. And I guess I was a pest at school and at home; my mother got tired of me. And when he entered school she sent me along with him [laughter]. I would do a lot of little things. If I wanted something, I had a little tune I would just kind of hum, yell, you know... um, um, um [laughter]. And if she whipped me or spanked me I wouldn’t cry. When she stopped I started crying. I didn’t like being in dark places and she tried that one time. She [00:03:00] put me in that little cellar, I stopped crying. Took me out, I started crying again, so I think she decided to send me to school with my brother. And I stayed there in Oklahoma. I went to the first grade in Holdenville. And at that time, they began to have more schools opening. And my dad got some type of certificate from Prairie View, eighth grade. At that time it was pretty good, you know. You could read, eighth grade. And at Holdenville at that time, they had high schools, and finally a college. And he would go to school every summer trying to get his high school education. So he was a principal without a high school education most of that time. So after seven years in Holdenville, I went to a small place, Tishomingo. [00:04:00] And they changed jobs, the principal there changed with him in Holdenville. At that time, they were so many who were better qualified than he was. And so he finally went back to Grayson and came back. And at that time my older sister in Okmulgee, where we finally landed, when she finished high school, the next year she was teaching. You would get one year in college and teach. And so then every summer they’d go to summer school program to advance themselves. And my dad became principal of a small rural school in Oakwood County. And then my sister joined him as a primary teacher. So then finally when he retired, she became principal. [00:05:00] And later on when I finished college, I didn’t plan to teach. I wanted to go into business, because my dad all those years, he didn’t accumulate very much. And there are people with several jobs working six days a week, got more than he got as a principal. When I graduated I couldn’t find anything else to do, so there was a vacancy. My sister was principal then. She wanted me to be a primary teacher. I told my sister, “Now, Jane, if you introduce me as primary teacher, I’m going home.” Because I had no one younger than I was that I could play with, and I didn’t know anything about little kids running around. So she finally said, “You mean that?” “Yes.” So I got there, and she elected me principal, so I became principal of the whole school there. I was there three years and [00:06:00] I did pretty good, I guess. We had a little choir, and we appeared at some churches and went to the Associated Teachers and sang there, and so forth. Then later on, my brother was principal of a smaller school on the other side of Oklahoma, Purcell. And they also wanted me to be a principal in a little city out in the country. There was a vacancy about seven miles, Paul’s Valley, that way. They paid more than they paid him at his school. Incidentally, I got a promotion when I got the job at Ball Hill. I got 80 dollars a month for eight months. Now at that time the black schools were open for eight months, the white schools open for nine months. At that time, that’s far from Okmulgee, when the kids reached eighth grade, [00:07:00] they had no place to go, because there was no transportation unless they had a friend in Okmulgee, or some other place, they had to stop at that level. Now going back to my brother. I went to Paul’s Valley. There was a number of people applying for it, but somehow I got the job. And for the first time they paid 12 months a year at 100 dollars a month, and that was a big, big change. My supervisor didn’t want me to go, but with that kind of change I knew I had to go. I stayed there two years. Going back to Langston. My wife, my first wife, Oline, I met her at Langston. She was a 12th grader, who had transferred from Okmulgee to Langston to finish High School. And she was a senior at that year, and I was too. [00:08:00] I didn’t know her very much kind of like some other girls at that time, and she was engaged too, at that time. (laughter) So I kind of went around. So finally when I finished high school at Langston, there were 32 students. I think now if you had a high school reunion, I could have any place I’m living, so I could be... (laughter) I don’t have any time (inaudible). (laughter) After I finished at Langston, my parents couldn’t pay for our education. So we had to get full board, my brother and I, in the same class, and got to the second year, my brother had a high temper. He kind of said things in the dining hall. He got into conflict with the person in charge, so he fired Rick. And Rick [00:09:00] only had one thing to do; hitchhike from Langston to Okmulgee and go home. And he tried to get other jobs where he was. Incidentally he found a job at [Doke’s?] Farm. My wife’s father called it “Potato Cane.” INTERVIEWER: Yeah, she’s told me. NARRATOR: So he worked there. So I went to the president and told him, “Dr. Young, Rick is two years older than I am. I don’t want to finish before Rick. “What do you mean?” I said, “I want Rick to come here and take my job, and I want to go home.” “Do you really mean it?” “Yes, I mean that.” So I went home, and Rick came, and they (inaudible). So we finished high school and college at Langston. That took five years, because I had to split part of my time with Rick, and so that took five years to finish there. Got that job, and after I got to Ball Hill, and I’m going back and forth. I went to see someone in Beggs, the girl I was seeing before. And I saw a little girl over there, and she’s sitting down, and that was Oline. She was still engaged. And we started talking, we started seeing each other a little from time to time, and it particularly took off, and that went pretty good. Until one night I had planned to take her to a social. I was going to pick her up at Beggs and take her to the social. But when I had got there, she was gone. Her fiancé took her to the social. (laughter) INTERVIEWER: Getting complicated. NARRATOR: I was disappointed, [00:11:00] I stood (inaudible) go out with Oline from time to time and I’d go with her. I finally decided to go. I went there and she was with [Cody?]. And I didn’t have an escort, at least I didn’t have anyone with me. But some little girl from Oklahoma City in a black dress. Cute little girl. (laughter) And I don’t know whether she had a boyfriend or not, but I know she was there, and I danced every dance with her. And I would pass by her and I thought that was the end of our association. But what happened, I heard about a job in Holdenville, and my brother went with me looking to employment there. He said, “Melvin, if you get a job of this size you need a wife. You get married.” I said, “You know what? [00:12:00] I believe I can marry Oline.” He said, “You’re a fool if you don’t.” So instead of going to getting employed there, I went to Langston. She was at school at summer school. And we talked a while, and she said, “Melvin, I gave [Cody?] his ring back that night.” I said, “Why?” I said, “Will you marry me?” (laughter) She said, “Yes.” And I said, “Give me a year to kind of get straight.” She agreed to that. (laughter) INTERVIEWER: That’s amazing. Wow. ROBERTSON: So we went on that year and everything worked out very well. And I had an old car, and I didn’t want to have an old car getting married. At the end of the year, I didn’t have a car that I wanted, to get married, so my brother’s friends in Purcell and made a little speech that night and they needed my car. My car went out to pick up some kids, but it didn’t come back. (laughter) So my brother said, “Well, I know the Pontiac people there.” [00:13:00] He took me there, and they let me have a car without a down payment. And I felt good about that. So I told Oline, “OK, let’s get married.” So as I was getting ready, every time I’d be there, so I’d pick her up. I had no money because Oklahoma, I got to go to places in I wouldn’t have to pay any money. And I hitchhiked so I didn’t have to pay any transportation fees. So I had a few dollars in my pocket and I’d been at Paul’s Valley, so we got in the car, I had a good dinner there because I eat there all the time. I bought gasoline, I filled my tank with gasoline on the way to Texas – I don’t know how, because I didn’t have any money. On the way we stopped in Marietta, a little county. “Let’s stop here and get married.” So we stopped there, and the judge got someone to witness, and we got married, and we went down further [00:14:00] and came to a place called Gene Autry at that time. I said, “Let’s go in.” Her job was, if she got married, she got fired. Interviewer: Yes, teachers. Narrator: And so what they did many times, they would keep it secret and get married. I didn’t want this. I put a picture in the paper, so that meant she got fired. So I was looking for a job, so we went to Paul’s Valley, Gene Autry, and talked with the superintendent for her to get a job. And so first thing invited us to come eat with her. That was unheard of at that time. Interviewer: Yeah, unusual. Narrator: So we’re eating dinner and, “Young man, what is your profession?” I said, “I’m principal at Paul’s Valley.” She said, “I want you to be principal at Gene Autry.” I said, “I hadn’t heard there was a vacancy.” So I said, “No, I (inaudible).” So we were going down to Texas, [00:15:00] and I guess (inaudible) had big crowd there, and I was afraid to cross the Red River, I was afraid to go any further. So we stopped, and there the doctor in the yard. I talked to him, he said, “Where are you going?” I said, “Well, we’re not going any further because of the weather condition.” He said, “Well, our place you’re staying,” so we stayed there. So he said, “Now, we have a school here and they need a principal. Why don’t you apply for it?” So I went there and applied for it, and he indicated I could get the job and I went back. And my brother said, “Now --” I told him what had happened. He said, “Which one you want?” I said, “Neither one of them.” He said, “I’m going down to Texas.” So he went down to Texas and got the job. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s funny. ROBERTSON: I finally told a friend of mine at Langston what had happened, that I was principal of an elementary school and also a high school. He said, “Melvin, you ought to take that job, [00:16:00] because you only jump from that level to other levels so easily.” So I went back, and he said, “Yes, the job is for you and your wife.” And so we got two jobs, a teacher region -- [eight room?] teacher region. I said, “I don’t want anyone in the house with it. I said, I don’t anyone in the house with us, just the two of us, just got married.” And he said, “OK,” and so we got a job and stayed there until Uncle Sam said to come with him. INTERVIEWER: Now where was that? NARRATOR: Berwyn. Gene Autry; it was Berwyn, it changed to Gene Autry while I was there. The actor. And so Uncle Sam said, “I want you.” I couldn’t say no. (laughter) So I went with Uncle Sam, and I didn’t want to go to the Army. I wanted to go to the Navy. And I tried to go to the Navy, I couldn’t get it here. I wanted to talk with someone in Denver, they said I go there. And I went there and they said, “No, you can’t go on here. If you go here you can go on a certain level.” So I came back to Oklahoma and [00:17:00] got in the Army. And after a few months, this big group who had lined up, I guess about 100 soldiers, and so the captain came over and said, “Private Richardson, I want to send you to the OCS.” I said, “OCS?” “Yes.” He said, “Now, what you do, you go to this place for one month. If you pass in one month, you’re sent to Oklahoma to Officers Candidate School.” Well, I did that, and I went through the process, and at that time the commandant (inaudible) said, “Here are your soldiers. No discrimination here.” He said, “You do that, you’re out.” They had 32 men in each group, and they had a little hut of six soldiers. [00:18:00] And I had five white soldiers, I was the only black soldier there. And some were from the Deep South. And two of them didn’t sleep at night. I didn’t either. (laughter) So finally I said, “Not my problem,” so I went on sleeping later on. Am I taking too much time? INTERVIEWER: No, absolutely not. NARRATOR: So we were doing very well in OCS. And I hadn’t done too well, I thought, in college and high school that I had -- I took the social course, more than I did the academic course. (laughter) And I got there and these fellows from Duke University and these big universities, and I was from Langston, and Langston wasn’t accredited. They only had two year colleges. And I said “I think here with these fellas, [00:19:00] I shouldn’t be making this kind of grade.” So I went to the commandant, explained to him, saying, “Now I’ve only been in the Army about three months and they asked me to go to OCS.” Some of these fellows (inaudible) been to corporal and sergeant and so forth. I said, “I’d like you to put me back for a few grades.” “Nope, I can’t do that.” So I saluted. He said, “If you’re going to make (inaudible) you have to worry about that. They’ll send you back automatically.” So I saluted and went back, and I finished on time and came out. And when I came out they had no place to send me. And I stayed there in Lawton for two or three weeks, and three or four other black soldiers came, no place for them. So there was a trucking regiment to transport officer candidates to the firing range. So they assigned me to that. At that time about five or six black soldiers [00:20:00] had no place to go. And we were sent to this place and walked in. I don’t know what the commandant said, “I want to see you for a minute.” So I went in there and they offered me a job being the adjutant. (laughter) I didn’t know what that was, well I accepted for that. They had a lot of talk about blacks are not going overseas and so forth in the newspaper. So finally I decided although I was the first one promoted to first lieutenant, the (inaudible) I was promoted, it called for a (inaudible) major. And I decided that I’m going to volunteer to go overseas. So they had no place to send me, so there was one black outfit, the 92nd Division, and I told the commanding officer that I wanted to go, and they [00:21:00] thought I was crazy. INTERVIEWER: And what year was this, Mr. Richardson? NARRATOR: That was about 19-- I was 29 years old. It was 1944, I think. And I told them I wanted to go to this black outfit going to Italy. So they finally went to Italy. So they agreed to let me go, but I was attached, unassigned. They said you can’t get any promotion -- that I can just go there, but I get no promotion. So I went with them to Italy, I served as a commander of this group for one time as captain in D.C. Not a captain at that time, but the person over that group [00:22:00] out of the foreign observer everything everybody did, but I couldn’t get promoted. Stayed there until finally Truman became President. We didn’t know what was going to happen at that time, again trying to go to Japan that was our final – aimed at. He came and he integrated the Army. And so I went to then a white group. But overseas we couldn’t go to the officers’ club or anything. Anything belonged to the group we couldn’t go. So I just stayed there. And so I came back home, and my wife was still working. She was still teaching. I’m going way back there again. I probably left Paul’s Valley at least Gene Autry. A friend of mine took my [00:23:00] -- I offered -- “I reckon it’s my job. You got the job. His wife.” And my wife told him that I told the kids I was in OCS. He said, “Melvin couldn’t get into OCS. I was in school with him.” (laughter) So I did go by there after I got my commission. Because he did see me in OCS. INTERVIEWER: You really were. That’s right. NARRATOR: But when I got back home, my wife had put in the bank every check I sent her. And she put her money in the bank. And then my college president at Langston, Sanford, we worked full board. But when he became president he had no job for me, so my brother and I had to either leave school or find another job doing something. So I started picking cotton and stuff like that to keep me in school that year, senior year. And after I got back, [00:24:00] Sanford was in Oklahoma City, and I heard he was trying to build a theater. And I always wanted to go and visit. So he had a partner and they felt they didn’t pull, and so I talked with him, and he accepted me as a partner. And so we built what’s called East Side Theater. And same time when I got the job, I (inaudible) the job at Luther, as principal there. And so I worked with Luther but I had someone there to carry on in the theater. I’ve got a little picture, I’ll show you it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I’d like to see that. Oh. (laughter) Oh, my goodness. Isn’t that cool? So this was a movie theater so that blacks would have a chance to go to the theater -- NARRATOR: To go to the theater, but they had one visual, they call it -- they had about 75 over the country. And it was just kind of run down. And they had a small one, about 200 seats. This had about 700 seats, so it was new. And I had a little problem. The big one would run first run pictures in Oklahoma City. So we couldn’t get first run pictures. So I went to the company and explained that we need first run pictures. And he explained one thing that stayed with me. He said, “Now, let me tell you. Two boys went to the grocery store. One boy had a nickel, one boy had a dime. [00:26:00] And the boy who had a nickel got one apple. The boy with a dime got three.” (laughter) That stated that you had to do something. So we stayed there -- INTERVIEWER: And who was this you went to? To whom did you go? NARRATOR: Where? INTERVIEWER: You ask why you couldn’t get first run for -- NARRATOR: Oklahoma City. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, but who was the person you talked to, you said -- NARRATOR: They had a company that distributed pictures all over the country -- INTERVIEWER: OK. It was the company. Gotcha. NARRATOR: And I went to talk with one, and he gave me that advice. So after about four years, my wife is working about 100 miles from me in Wynnewood. I was working at Luther. Got along fine, had a wonderful group to work with, and kids doing very well. And then they didn’t have a theater in Luther. [00:27:00] And they heard about, I had one there, and they asked about us, and I said no, Luther is a small town. You own a theater, it wouldn’t be profitable. So they opened it for whites only. And finally they started losing money, so they called me over again and they wanted me to stick some fliers, I said, “I’m not in business here, I’m in education.” So they went on and finally my last four years they opened a theater in a storefront. And we had a winning football team, and had a banquet, coach from Langston to be speaker on Tuesday. They set it up, blacks go there on Tuesday and Thursdays, whites all other days. And I had this banquet on Tuesday. I didn’t have it planned that way, but the kids [00:28:00] got together with the coach. And the superintendent called me over and said, “Mr. Richardson, I heard you had a banquet scheduled on Tuesday,” and I said, “Yes.” “That’s the day that blacks go to the theater.” And I said, “That don’t bother me.” He said, “The board told me to tell you if you don’t move it, you won’t be here next year.” So my wife was home at that time, she had been ill, and I told her, I said, “I won’t be here next year,” is what I told her. So I went on, and things went very well and (inaudible) called me professor. So he comes up, got these contracts with teachers. So I went there and he said, “All the teachers were elected.” He said, “That’s fine. But you weren’t.” I said, “What happened?” He said, “You think about it.” And I went to the board president, talked to him, he said, “They decided they wouldn’t tell you.” [00:29:00] I said, “You know that when you leave one place going to another place, they want to know some recommendation.” “Oh, you get nothing.” I said, “I should know why I’m being fired.” He said, “They won’t tell you.” So I told the faculty that evening about it, and it got to the kids. All of them came to our house wanting to know why I wouldn’t be there. So I told them that I couldn’t tell that. So they came next day and wanted to talk to the superintendent. And I called, he did come. They asked all kind of questions, he said, “Professor, I can’t do anything, I’m leaving.” So when he left, all those kids left too. And they were down going, and I said, “Now, look here. I think you’re doing this for me, but you are students. This is an adult situation. Now if you want to do this for me, [00:30:00] go back to school.” So they finally went back to school, but next day the parents met at night, and they’re talking to us how “I think you’ve done right, a good thing.” But I wouldn’t take the job if it was offered to me. They said I was fired, that was my answer. They said, “Well, you’re doing something that wouldn’t happen to the next principal, however.” By that time, the custodian came and knocked on the door. “Mr. Richardson, come outside,” came outside. Now Lawrence [Lavell?] was the one who was -- the man who owned the theater. He said, “Lawrence Lavell committed suicide.” I said, “What?” “He committed suicide.” So we dismissed and I said, “Let’s go home.” So we went home. And my wife had packed -- I don’t know what she thought. So I went home because I knew it would happen, because they were going to tie me to it, [00:31:00] I didn’t know whether they would or not. So I went home and I called back to one of the teachers, everything was quiet, so I came back. And what happened, one side, the board members, and then all of sudden a bunch of people were there with different opinions. They called me over and asked me why I got fired, and I wouldn’t tell them. And so finally moved that next day, called the movers, they took everything to Oklahoma City and put it in storage. So I stayed in Wynnewood. (inaudible), drove down to Wynnewood to see if I would accept -- no, they won’t accept it. And so I finally left there, and I didn’t have a job, and I heard about a job in Muskogee. So I went up there, [00:32:00] talked with the superintendent, and he said, “Do you have a master’s degree?” I said, “No.” He said, “Well, this is a (inaudible) association. You have to have a master’s degree to be principal here.” He said, “Let me give you some advice. You go back and quit your job, and go to some big university.” I said, “What?” And I turned around and I didn’t say, “Now, why would you tell me to do that? I didn’t come here to see about a job, not a lecture.” And I went on and fortunately someone heard I was available in Tatum, and they called me and I took the job. And my wife went with me, she got a job. After we had about two weeks, we signed a contract, I said, “This is not my job.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “It’s not my job.” So we quit. [00:33:00] I told her we’re going to do some other thing. I tried to get into Columbia, at first they wouldn’t accept me. INTERVIEWER: Columbia in New York? NARRATOR: Because the school wasn’t accredited, the two-year program. I finally told them things that I had done, they let me go to -- accepted me. And I went there. My lowest grade the first marking period was a B. (laughter) INTERVIEWER: That’s quite remarkable at Columbia for sure. NARRATOR: And I got my degree, and I wanted to come back to Oklahoma, so I went to see the president of Teachers College, and talk to him about a recommendation. My sponsor that I worked with was out lecturing at schools over there, Dave. And so she said, “Dr. French is here. Usually he’s always busy. [00:34:00] Why don’t you talk to him?” And said, “You know what, he’s not my advisor.” So she encouraged me, I went and talked to Dr. French and about a recommendation. He said, “Going to Oklahoma? Why are you going back to Oklahoma?” I said, “Well, I know people there, and all my contacts.” “That’s no reason to go back, you belong on the east coast.” He said, “One of the superintendents from Arlington came through here about 10 days ago looking for a principal. And I’d like to recommend you for that job.” So he called and they said they’d like to see me. He said, “I have a man you ought to see.” So I went there and there were two other fellows still left, and they had interviewed them. And then there were two left. They called on me, I went there, and they asked me why I left the job, [00:35:00] I told them to further my education, that kind of stuff. And so Dr. [Roheim?] said that at that time all the board members had PhDs, and Dr. Roheim said, “Now, Mr. Richardson, is that the only reason you left Luther, that job?” And I said, “No, you asked the $64 question. I’m going to give you a $64 answer: I was fired.” (laughter) They were shocked, they had the principals were there, and his staff and they asked me if I got those kids involved to do this, I said, “No, I asked them to go back.” “Any questions?” “No, no questions.” So I went back and he said, “I bet you got that job, (inaudible) stay a while, (inaudible).” And then they said that -- Charlie [Walsh?] said that they’re impressed with you and want to offer the job. I said, “Yes. What kind of salary is it?” They said, “We’ll give you the salary that the principal had.” [00:36:00] I said, “I can’t come for that.” So they raised it a little bit and so finally they agreed to a figure that I thought was adequate, and so we moved there. And I stayed there 32 years and kept kind of busy. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure. And when you went there, it was Hoffman-Boston, but it was all levels. NARRATOR: At that time, all black. As a matter of fact, the first nights I stayed in Washington because there was no hotel, and people don’t like to take the people in, two people. So I had to stay there and drive back and forth for about 10 days, finally got a place to stay. Then there was no place to build, even, tried to find a place to build, and so I finally got a place, I talked to you yesterday. I built a house in (inaudible). INTERVIEWER: And that was the beginning. So what was it like? So you go in there, you have this school, three grade levels. [00:37:00] You’re principal for all of them. What was it like, what were the teachers like? What was it like when you went there, when you started there? NARRATOR: I had worked in schools previously with one building all the way from first to twelfth grade. And I got kind of got used to that situation where there’s not two buildings, always in one building. Now I had three levels. All of the other principals had one level, you had junior high school, elementary, and senior high school. But I had three meetings to go to a month, plus all the principals’ meetings. I didn’t know until later on that I was not getting quite as much as some of the larger junior high school principals. So I stayed there until a third time. At that time, Arlington is quite -- [00:38:00] they thought, more liberal than the other part of the state. And the board and all of the superintendents all call first names. The board tried to change, desegregation in schools earlier. They were kept from doing that. And so they started -- we couldn’t elect our board members anymore. They were appointed by the county. And so the county wanted to get someone they thought got -- got a ways to come and be superintendent. So they got Ray Reid. Unfortunately, I made a bad impression on him when I first went there. INTERVIEWER: Oh dear. (laughter) What did you do? NARRATOR: Well, he came there, you know, those who are going -- the jobs are coming -- looked the place over. I was talking to the principal and teachers, and the people at the office, [00:39:00] as usual. And when he was elected, he called me over one day, he wanted to speak to me. I went there, he said, “I noticed when I came, you called everybody by a first name.” I said, “Yes, I also want you to call me by my first name.” I said, “Well, that’s the same for me.” And so that went on, and he always -- we started talking, we just talked -- no name, just started talking. And when they desegregated, they wanted to give me Hoffman-Boston with some of the not-able students. I said I won’t accept that. [00:40:00] And Harold Wilson and I were pretty good friends. You know Harold Wilson? He was principal of Wakefield at the time. I told him, I said, “George I tell you,” I said, “I’m not accepting.” He said, “I’m principal at Wakefield. I’ll take you as vice-principal at Wakefield.” So I went there as vice-principal. And another thing happened. They had an important scientist from Europe came to speak at one of the high schools, Wakefield. And James Stockard asked me if I’d been invited and I said “no.” He said, “Well, you will be invited.” And at that time, they had a regulation that when the groups met -- the blacks took the front seats on the inside, no other seats. And so, I told the -- [00:41:00] I said I’ve been invited. And so I told the parents to have cars there to take the kids there. And the policy was -- well, he had -- permission for parents to take them one place or another. So I told him that – Jim Stockard, he said, “Don’t worry about that. Go in” -- and he had one of the people at the school that wanted to call in, told him that he said, take them over there. So I took them over there. I said, “Now, I don’t want anyone to go -- I want to be the first to go there.” And so we got there at some -- before I got there, and they took seats, didn’t take the front seats. And Reid called me the next day. “I understood you went over to Wakefield and integrated the school.” I said, “I’m not principal there.” (laughter) I said, “Harold is principal there.” I said -- so I told Harold about it, [00:42:00] he said “He won’t say anything to you about it.” So that ended that. INTERVIEWER: So this was when -- when they were going to close the school as a whole, Hoffman-Boston as a school -- NARRATOR: Were they? INTERVIEWER: Was this in 1964, when they were closing the school? NARRATOR: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And then you went from there, though, to Wakefield for a while, and then the schools -- NARRATOR: Wakefield, yes. That was before ’64. INTERVIEWER: Right, that was before ’64. OK, I guess I’m confused. The school stayed open -- there was one class after ’64, was there not? NARRATOR: Integrated in ’64. INTERVIEWER: Integrated in ’64. NARRATOR: And they scattered the kids -- most of them went to Wakefield. Because Green Valley and Arlington View are close to Wakefield. Langston is over there by itself, almost. So most of them are there. INTERVIEWER: So that’s when you went to Wakefield. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Well, now, when you arrived there, going back, what was the condition of the school? I know you had all one -- K through 12. What was it -- NARRATOR: You mean at Wakefield? INTERVIEWER: No, no, at Hoffman-Boston. [00:43:00] What was the condition of the -- the physical condition as it compared to other schools, and did you have the same books, I mean, what was it like? NARRATOR: They made two approaches to remodel the school, but it didn’t -- failed. It was the same. I did get an office. We did get a gymnasium. And we only had from grades 7 through 12. That stayed that way until -- INTERVIEWER: Until it closed, since it -- yeah. NARRATOR: (inaudible). I’m just here looking for it, but... INTERVIEWER: What were you looking for, was something you were looking for? NARRATOR: Oh, something I thought I was going to show, but I didn’t find it. INTERVIEWER: Well, maybe it will turn up. I want to talk a little bit about school. You said there were challenges were from the physical standpoint. [00:44:00] The school -- the building, there were issues with the building, and they tried to update it. They never really got it up completely. What other challenges were there for you, particularly, coming there to that school at the time? Did you get the same textbooks? I mean, you always hear things about, you know -- NARRATOR: Yeah, they got the helping teachers came to -- [Head First?], we had one person came to our school, supervisor, (inaudible) supervisor. And I told him I’d like to have all the services that the other schools had, so they did that. INTERVIEWER: So you did -- that wasn’t a problem to you. NARRATOR: And then when they planned to integrate, they sent a counselor from Wakefield, because I had more of a -- get more of our black kids to spend one-half day every day at my school. And he talked with the kids and, he said, now, “George, you too -- act like the kids. [00:45:00] They will get that (inaudible).” But he worked with us, worked very well. INTERVIEWER: How did the students feel? When all of this was going on, there’s a lot of turmoil here. I mean, you know, it’s a big change. How did the students react? Were they glad this was happening? I mean, on one level, but they had to change schools. I mean, they were very -- that school was -- they were very attached to that school. NARRATOR: Well, they liked the school, but they know that it’s part of the situation. And they accepted it. INTERVIEWER: They accepted it, yeah. NARRATOR: And we tried to get them oriented as much as we could, a lot of field trips with kind of doing other things like that, and do -- get kids in kind of different situations. But they accepted it, and -- INTERVIEWER: Well, what would you say were some of your biggest challenges when you were there, just in general, [00:46:00] at Hoffman-Boston? What were the things that were really challenging? NARRATOR: Well, one thing, the school wasn’t equipped as well as other schools. Our science department wasn’t equipped as well. Other departments were not. We didn’t have an auditorium, just a makeshift type thing. And another thing, the building was not adequate. And we had the president of the PTA to make an appeal on two or three occasions, we had bond issues to include Hoffman-Boston, but nothing happened. They made small improvements, but not what we needed. INTERVIEWER: And you said that you did get a gymnasium. You got a gymnasium, finally, at some point. At some point you got a gymnasium, a gym for the -- INTERVIEWER 2: They built the gymnasium. NARRATOR: Yeah, gymnasium. INTERVIEWER: Finally did that. NARRATOR: Also, we did -- I got them to combine the library with the so-called auditorium, [00:47:00] to make more space, and that’s one thing I changed when I got there. They did that…. but the facility was always inadequate, yes. INTERVIEWER: That was -- you think that was the biggest challenge, was the facility? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: How did you work -- with the parents, the PTA, were the parents very involved with the students there? Were the parents very involved with the school? NARRATOR: Yes, they were quite a bit, yes. INTERVIEWER: They were, yeah, yeah. So you got support from the parents. NARRATOR: We had a PTA association -- [Lutell Park?], you have heard of him, I guess. INTERVIEWER: Yes, I’ve heard of him. NARRATOR: He was the president of the PTA, and he had other people, very well prepared people, who were president, and they could represent us at the board. We had other speakers come to -- Broyhill, do you know Broyhill? INTERVIEWER: Yes, I know Broyhill. NARRATOR: We had him to speak to our kids. And we asked the kids, asked them questions and all. [00:48:00] And I think how that came about, well, he said, “Now your kids don’t know how to smile.” I said, “They don’t have much to smile about.” INTERVIEWER: There you go. Yeah, that’s interesting. NARRATOR: Then we had speakers from Arlington to come over, and also from black communities to come over to speak, and our kids would ask questions and so forth. INTERVIEWER: What was your educational philosophy, because I know you have one, a strong educational philosophy that you believe in about educating children? NARRATOR: Well, I think this. From my own experience, and that I had with the kids I worked with, that many times we underestimate the ability of black kids. One thing is the -- [00:49:00] they weighted pretty heavy on those women when they gave the test, but they’re not part of the society. You see, they couldn’t go to grocery stores, and little kids play around, that type of thing. And that’s the reason why I had Broyhill and I used to go over to ask him, “Why aren’t you employing qualified black kids?” I wanted them to be busy, because if they had work to do, sometimes they wouldn’t get in difficulties. But if they had nothing to do, and they see nothing around them where blacks are doing anything, so it -- they underestimate, I think. Now, I think I was underestimated. INTERVIEWER: Right, apparently you were, because you rose like a meteor. But I understand that. [00:50:00] You also -- I know there were some stories about -- that you have talked to, but you should do it on tape for us -- not tape, now it’s recorded digital. But about some -- when you came there, some things that you decided that -- like, the boys shouldn’t go caddy during their lunch hour. There were certain things -- tell about those couple of things that you said no -- NARRATOR: Well, I was told by Charlie Walsh, he said, now, “When you take Hoffman-Boston School,” he said, “There’s a golf course there. The kids will leave their lunch period and won’t come back.” They had a little store that was a block from the school. They’d go there and get little sandwiches and so forth, and then kids, the parents complained about it, papers thrown around. So I stopped all that. I said, now, “You’re here for school. And you’re here for this number of hours.” And I went to the golf course and I told them that I didn’t want them to employ these kids, because they belong in school and not at a golf course. [00:51:00] So they stopped that. At that time, we had -- before I got there, there were socials and little dances, and kids that didn’t belong to our school would come there and participate. When I got there, I said, “Unless you’re a student here, you don’t come to our proms.” And I had a little reaction to that, because some of the kids broke my windows, and that type of thing. INTERVIEWER: I heard that. And your car, several times. NARRATOR: Yeah. But I didn’t grumble about it. I had a Pontiac at that time. I knew them, and I got it -- I’d take it as soon as possible to them, they’d put glass in, I’d say, next day or two, I’m in business again. INTERVIEWER: You’re back. NARRATOR: But I never did say anything to them about it because I thought it was my problem, and that they’d get over it. And also, when they had this seating situation, that blacks sit on a certain side, [00:52:00] it had to be in all schools, hanging on the walls at all schools. Well, the kids didn’t like that. They’d take it out and throw it in the yard. They did it twice, so I went to [Ed Rutter?] and told him that I’m not going to put that in my school anymore, because kids don’t want it. This could be the problem. So in high school we didn’t have it anymore. INTERVIEWER: It was like a seating chart showing where they could sit? NARRATOR: The law was, if you had an integrated situation, the blacks -- whites would be on one side, and the blacks on the other side. Now, we had a meeting at Washington-Lee one time, and I followed my president of the PTA, we went there, we were the only two blacks there. And the people who called the announcer came, and they saw us, and they demanded that they move us. The board wouldn’t do it. [00:53:00] So they called the police, and they reined the whole situation around. And it kind of quieted down. But we left, I got a lot of calls wanting to know if we got home OK. I told them we got home OK. But they would send a fire truck to me sometimes, though I didn’t have a fire. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? NARRATOR: Well, they thought I was trying to work with integration. So I got those kind of things. They had a picture of me; I threw it away, because I didn’t want my sons -- they had had it -- about this size. INTERVIEWER: Like a size of a regular piece of paper. Like this? This size or something? NARRATOR: Yeah, the group did. I guess they didn’t like me too well, so they had -- they were at my school looking to do something. I lived across the street from the school. When I passed, I saw -- [00:54:00] I went there to see what they wanted. They took pictures of me and had my picture and all kind of blood strewn down like that. And then they put it -- and so we had a meeting, and they were talking about that. And I made some mention about it. I got some of my notes there that I thought it was one of the dirtiest things they could do, to have my picture. I wasn’t part of that group. I wouldn’t be a part of the group. But things like that happen. INTERVIEWER: You were very active in the community, as well. And I know you worked for the first neighborhood conservation plan there for Arlington View. And talk a little bit about how you got involved with that, and I know you built some houses yourself, and so forth. NARRATOR: How it got started? INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: Well, the main thing. I didn’t like the entrance, the main street going to that area. [00:55:00] And the people who worked at the Pentagon and other places thought it was a parking lot. It wasn’t well kept. And all of the county had streets and houses and so forth, and I didn’t want my kids to live in that kind of situation. And I tried to find a place to live. So I found a place, one lady, Mrs. Cooper, she had a little back room back there, so my wife and I stayed there a while. And then something happened that I think her son-in-law was connected with the Communist Party, and they started investigating me. So my brother heard about it, and he came to Arlington, and told me to move. The Christine (?) Apartments were just being built [00:56:00] at that time, so we moved to the Christine Apartments. We stayed there until Ford Henry Garden [?], a friend of mine who worked in Washington, moved, and so he gave me his apartment. So we stayed there until I could find a place to build, and so we built a house and stayed there until we moved. But the project there -- I first talked about streets and gutters with many of the parents. And after I did that, I said, “Now, we need more than that.” So I said, “We need to get our community upgraded.” So I started, went to the association and talked to them about it, they said, “No, that’s been tried two or three times; that’s not going to work.” INTERVIEWER: Is this the civic association you went to? What association did you go to? NARRATOR: The -- in my community, citizens’ association. [00:57:00] And I decided that something could be done. I was working at that time in Montgomery County. I didn’t have time to have meetings, so I just kind of got together, and I could do a little sketching myself, and I looked at what happened before they turned down the light situation, they turned that down. And the county board had -- planning had a project, they turned that down. So I didn’t think I’d get too much information from them. I would start with what they had, so I thought I’d start sort of fresh. And so I started getting information from my community, and I also got communication information from Washington, D.C., and combined that to build a program to present to the board. And I tried to get them to do what they can with what they had to [00:58:00] fix the houses up. So we go there, I say, “Now, this is what we have done as a community. Now, I think you should do something else to help us.” So that went through. INTERVIEWER: So they did. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: They did. NARRATOR: I was surprised. Actually, now, what happened before I went to the board, I had the teachers, parents, and all to meet the night before and discuss some things we should do. And I had a secretary or two that took some notes. Had a document about this thick, and I took that with me. And I didn’t know whether they would accept me at the meeting or not, so I went there, and I had a big machine that I brought from the school that would drop pictures out, [00:59:00] and, you know, I had a little music background, and pictures fall down. And I had Syphax to come and take the equipment with me, so we did that. And it wasn’t -- especially for me, I told Jim Stockard. I said, now, “You know, I came at the wrong time, but I have this information here,” (inaudible). “You can do it.” So I did it, you know, I did have questions, and they seemed to like what I was doing. So then I want -- before that time, it was Johnson’s Hill, and after that meeting, it was always referred to as Arlington View. INTERVIEWER: So that’s when it changed, really. NARRATOR: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So were you -- you stayed in -- you went to Wakefield -- how long were you at Wakefield? NARRATOR: Two years. INTERVIEWER: And then what did you do? NARRATOR: I went to Montgomery County. INTERVIEWER: You went to Montgomery County. And what were you doing at Montgomery County? NARRATOR: Well, I was assistant principal there. What happened, [01:00:00] my brother was principal in Texas. They integrated his school and actually fired the principal. And my mother called me and asked if I could do anything, and well, I said, “Now, mother, I’m in a small city. And I know very little about Washington, D.C.” And so I took my wife to the doctor in Washington, D.C., and I told her what she said. And so I called a cab for my wife to go back to Arlington, I went to Montgomery County and talked with the superintendent, the people there. And they kind of wanted me to work there. So I go back, and went to Washington, D.C. And I met this assistant superintendent at a [John Hay Filler?] organization, [01:01:00] in Massachusetts. And so he said, “Now, if you need a job, let me know.” So I talked to him, and he said he would certainly consider my brother and his wife in Washington, D.C. And so they moved there to Washington, D.C., and got jobs. And I finally -- when things didn’t go like I wanted at Arlington, I went back to Montgomery County and got a job there. INTERVIEWER: I see. Now, I know that the NAACP is honoring you this year. Tell me about your activities with the NAACP in Arlington. What did you -- NARRATOR: I think one thing I had a student, that I would recommend to go to Yale University. I had about two or three students, and I see one teacher and the counselor to select one of the students. And he went [01:02:00] to Yale, did very well, went to Harvard, did very well. And they could honor him also. And I think his wife put a lot of money into scholarships. They got Yale scholarships, $10,000 to students, and they’d break it up into $2,500 in one year for four years. But they have quite a bit of money to do that. And so I think, because I was connected to him, I think that was one thing, and I worked at Hoffman-Boston. I didn’t reveal anything about the conservation program. I thought if I had a lot of stuff about that, they’d discuss that. And if they had anything at the library, it wouldn’t be as interesting. INTERVIEWER: Right, I think I understand that. NARRATOR: So I kept those things separate. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah. I think you were asking about the teams a little bit, the sports, or -- INTERVIEWER 2: Well, you said that it took a while, but you got a gymnasium built. You had a gymnasium built at Hoffman-Boston for the students. [01:03:00] Now, for the sports teams there, did you have – decent equipment, and the uniforms, and things like that? INTERVIEWER: Did you have teams? NARRATOR: Football, we had a football team. We had equipment, yes. They were dressed – football and basketball. INTERVIEWER: Who did they play? NARRATOR: They played the black schools. They had no white schools. INTERVIEWER: Right, I figured. And you had a basketball team. NARRATOR: Basketball team, football team. We didn’t have a baseball team. INTERVIEWER: No baseball team, OK. NARRATOR: And my coach -- one of them became principal in Alexandria, and later on, area superintendent in Fairfax County. INTERVIEWER: OK, very good. INTERVIEWER 2: Now, how about for, like, music or arts? NARRATOR: Oh, we had wonderful music. And one girl who graduated from Hoffman-Boston, she went to South America and all singing, and so forth. A very good student. And I had another student, [01:04:00] Roberta Flack. INTERVIEWER: Indeed, Roberta Flack, right. NARRATOR: She was a student of mine, also. INTERVIEWER: She was your student, too. We certainly know her, yeah. NARRATOR: I think I have a picture of [Pollard?]. I was asked to join the teachers’ group, Greek letters, when I was at Columbia. INTERVIEWER: Say again, you were asked to join... NARRATOR: It’s the Delta something, professional group. INTERVIEWER: OK, at Columbia, yeah. NARRATOR: Greek letter organization. INTERVIEWER: Oh, OK. That was when you were at Columbia. NARRATOR: At Columbia, uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: [01:05:00] And this -- you brought this picture of -- this is of -- NARRATOR: She is the one who went to Howard, and they went down South, South America, and she -- INTERVIEWER: She toured. INTERVIEWER 2: The opera singer? NARRATOR: Excuse me? INTERVIEWER: Was she opera -- yeah, was she an opera singer? NARRATOR: Not quite that level, but she was -- INTERVIEWER: Yeah, not a pop singer, she was -- NARRATOR: Yeah, not popular. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I think I’ve heard people mention her before, yeah. So you had good music program, good arts, and you had good sports, what you had. NARRATOR: And our science team was outstanding. And one got recognition, I think, home economics department, the only one in that area, out of 84 schools evaluated. INTERVIEWER: I just -- as I was telling you, when they did that program about Hoffman-Boston, the feeling that you got was that it was [01:06:00] well run. Obviously, you were the principal. The teachers were good. The students liked the experience. You know, it was sort of the old thing, too, the community was right there. If somebody did something, well, your mother was going to know about it, probably, because somebody would see it. But they had such loyalty to it. I mean, I just came away from there thinking what amazing loyalty these people still had to that school, from that long ago. And that has to be a tribute to you and to your teachers. But it was just amazing. As I said, I thought afterwards, who wouldn’t want to have gone to that school? It just seemed remarkable to me. NARRATOR: Well, I had about three persons who really were always talking about integration. As a matter of fact, I went to one meeting at -- my wife’s pastor’s folk had about 30 over there. They were talking about integration, and he said, “Well, you’re talking about integration. Say, we’ve been trying to get rid of mixed race for five years. [01:07:00] We don’t care if you fire all the teachers, all we want is our kids integrated.” (laughter) So he says in a meeting, and some of the people called me about that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. NARRATOR: But they were really trying to -- you know, Thurgood Marshall, you know, he was one, prominently doing the integration. Those lawyers trying to get a record for themselves. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, of course. So looking back, this morning we were in this session, and the moderator said, “What was the one thing in all that surprised you the most, maybe?” And I would say to you, what surprised you the most when you came here to Hoffman-Boston? Surprise, what surprise did you have here that -- anything that surprised you, particularly, that you weren’t expecting? NARRATOR: Where is that? INTERVIEWER: When you came to Hoffman-Boston, originally. NARRATOR: Well, the main thing -- you mean when I left to go to Wakefield? INTERVIEWER: No, I mean when you came here. [01:08:00] When you came to Hoffman-Boston to be the principal, were there big -- any big thing that particularly surprised you, or you saw as a particular challenge more than usual? Or just it all was, maybe. NARRATOR: You mean, going to Wakefield? INTERVIEWER 2: No, when you arrived at Hoffman-Boston. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, what was surprising -- did anything surprise you about -- NARRATOR: Yes, it did, because I was surprised when I saw the building. INTERVIEWER: That was the main thing. NARRATOR: See, I went from Washington, D.C., to the meeting that night. Stratford was just opening. I thought to have all the schools at that level. INTERVIEWER: At Stratford, which had just opened, right. NARRATOR: And we couldn’t find Hoffman-Boston. So brought him into Arlington, so we parked on Shirley Highway. And we saw the first of the new buildings. I thought that looked pretty good, but when I saw the other building, I was let down. I thought the -- I these schools looked sort of like Stratford. [01:09:00] You know, not quite that modern. INTERVIEWER: Right, because it was new, right. NARRATOR: But that surprised me. And when I got in, they were, at that time, remodeling Hoffman-Boston there. Didn’t have a gymnasium, didn’t have a principal’s office, they didn’t have -- a lot of things they didn’t have, and so I made a few suggestions, but it was too late to make any big suggestions. The big would have been to tear it down and get another one. INTERVIEWER: Right, they don’t do that. Then when you -- how long were you at Wakefield, you said -- NARRATOR: Two years. INTERVIEWER: Two years at Wakefield. And then you -- were you not -- did you not like that, because you did leave. NARRATOR: I left, because I don’t stay in a situation I don’t like. And I knew that the superintendent didn’t think too much of me, and I didn’t work in the situation. And one of the staff members said that he said that I would never be able to get a principalship. [01:10:00] They told me that’s what he said, and I don’t know, but he told me that. INTERVIEWER: He said that. NARRATOR: So I thought I wouldn’t want to work in a situation where the... INTERVIEWER: Yeah. And could you tell me, what did you do in Montgomery County? You were principal in Montgomery County? NARRATOR: Assistant principal. INTERVIEWER: You were assistant principal in Montgomery County. For which school there? NARRATOR: I was at BCC, Whitman High School and Churchill High School. INTERVIEWER: OK, wow. NARRATOR: Now, my last year, they wanted me to go to -- the principals would meet, and they would interview a person who might want to be principal. So the superintendent asked me to go there. I told him, “No, it’s too late in my career to go back to principalship.” So I went to Area 2, assistant superintendent at Area 2. INTERVIEWER: And that was when you -- and after that was, you retired after that. NARRATOR: Yes, uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: And came back to Oklahoma. NARRATOR: Came back to Oklahoma. INTERVIEWER: Did you work after you got back here? Did you take a -- did you work here [01:10:00] doing anything, or did you retire, really? NARRATOR: Not in education. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, just other -- NARRATOR: I belonged to the teacher association. I was president of that. We had 1,300 members, and (inaudible). I worked with that. Then I worked with all the YMCA, and my church. And politics a little. And business groups sometimes. So I -- then I had a little project in my church. My wife and I decided at that time that we had spent this time in education, that we would put a little money into a scholarship for kids. We started -- I think we’ve got a copy of that. INTERVIEWER: That would be nice. Yeah, I’d like to see that. [01:12:00] Should be. Well, let’s see. Oh, that’s so nice. George M. and Oline M. Richardson Scholarship Fund. Oh, that’s so neat. NARRATOR: Yes, and that story has been going on 28 years now. INTERVIEWER: Oh my, that’s right. Kappa -- that’s the other thing, you were Kappa. You were one of the first. [01:13:00] (inaudible), wow. Tell me about the Kappas, though. You were one of the first something, first Kappa something. NARRATOR: Well, wasn’t it -- I want the kids to know more about the history. Because not too much in schools, a lot of it. And so we compiled some questions about 15 different categories. And every year we have a contest. And we give little prizes, not very much money, but we -- INTERVIEWER: It’s recognition. They get recognition. NARRATOR: Yes. And then the two top teams that appear on television for the whole month of February. INTERVIEWER: Oh, my. That’s exciting. That’s exciting. Oh, that’s really great. Wow, a lot of questions here. Look at this. Who started the first national movement for resettling free blacks in Canada in 1830? [01:14:00] I would never know that in a million years. It was Bishop Richard Allen. So I mean, that’s amazing. OK. That’s -- NARRATOR: They’ve been going for 28 years, and every year we have about five or six teams. INTERVIEWER: Oh, yeah. NARRATOR: And we have competing... INTERVIEWER: That’s exciting. That’s great. Well, Mr. Richardson, this has been great. Do you have anything that you want to add, anything you want to say for posterity here? NARRATOR: I got kind of busy. I was the first layperson elected to the association of psychologists. INTERVIEWER: Oh, really. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah, in the state. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s remarkable. NARRATOR: And I worked with them for a while. I was the only one who didn’t have a PhD. INTERVIEWER: You seem to do all these things, whatever. You still just seem to -- you know, I -- it’s amazing to me. You’ve had an amazing life. [01:15:00] Well, it’s been an honor to interview you, and -- INTERVIEWER 2: Thank you very much. INTERVIEWER: You know, this will be part of our collection, and people will use it. It will be used. And it -- NARRATOR: Well, do you have any more questions? INTERVIEWER: Did you have another question, John? You talked about sports and -- NARRATOR: I’ll tell you a story about getting married. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, tell us a story. That’s a good story, always. NARRATOR: My brother worked on a farm. That’s how he met her. And I went to visit him and decided to go see some of the students at Langston University some time ago, so he knew that family, went by and met her. But first I called by telephone. I said, “I want to come by and visit you.” “Why are you coming by? I’m just a little old 85 year old gray-headed woman.” So I went anyway, and we met and talked. [01:16:00] And then I don’t know why, but I decided to come back later on. The second time, and that happened. And then we talked by telephone, our courtship. And so, finally, we had a wedding and all of that. And we got a license, there’s a line over here, you know, getting married. We got in line, and they saw us, and, “You’re in the wrong line.” They thought I was going to get a divorce. (laughter) INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s funny. Wow, that’s a statement on things, isn’t it? NARRATOR: Well, she was -- I was 90 at the time, and she was 85. INTERVIEWER: Wow. (laughter) Well, it’s never too late, right? NARRATOR: And he thought we were getting a divorce. INTERVIEWER: That’s funny. Oh, that’s so funny. That’s great. [01:17:00] Well, it’s been an honor and a privilege to talk to you, and -- NARRATOR: Well, I’ve been honored to even be thought of. INTERVIEWER: Oh, well, you’re an icon, and we appreciate it. And we also appreciate the donation that you’re giving to the library, which will be -- your papers will be available to anybody, to researchers, and it’s a very, very important contribution, truly, to oral history. And to history in this -- NARRATOR: Maybe one of those newspapers is torn apart. INTERVIEWER: That’s OK. INTERVIEWER 2: We can take care of those. INTERVIEWER: We can take care of them. Yeah, we can do that. We’re good at preservation. And a lot of those early newspapers, we don’t have indexed, so it’s good that we have the clippings, because we couldn’t really find those clippings very easily. So thank you again, and it’s been a pleasure. NARRATOR: Yeah, thank you for coming by. END OF INTERVIEW Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, January 11, 2013, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Jan-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/0dcc4bd568d8d8e7e2b3f0d841da5908.mp3 c4c51ef3cb59ea7520c00c6f7de1502d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Educational Philosophy Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, January 11, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013, regarding his reflections on his educational philosophy. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Jan-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Educational Philosophy Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/115b9f6b71a9517c4a7acde26e8b3af9.pdf 198544a3b183659ee3401a5b44294dac PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: George Melvin Richardson INTERVIEWER: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: John Stanton DATE: October 11, 2013 Educational Philosophy Clip NARRATOR: [00:47:48] We had other speakers come to -- Broyhill, do you know Broyhill? INTERVIEWER: Yes, I know Broyhill. NARRATOR: We had him to speak to our kids. And we asked the kids, asked them questions and all. [00:48:00] And I think how that came about, well, he said, “Now your kids don’t know how to smile.” I said, “They don’t have much to smile about.” INTERVIEWER: There you go. Yeah, that’s interesting. NARRATOR: Then we had speakers from Arlington to come over, and also from black communities to come over to speak, and our kids would ask questions and so forth. INTERVIEWER: What was your educational philosophy, because I know you have one, a strong educational philosophy that you believe in about educating children? NARRATOR: Well, I think this. From my own experience, and that I had with the kids I worked with, that many times we underestimate the ability of black kids. One thing is the -- [00:49:00] they weighted pretty heavy on those women when they gave the test, but they’re not part of the society. You see, they couldn’t go to grocery stores, and little kids play around, that type of thing. And that’s the reason why I had Broyhill and I used to go over to ask him, “Why aren’t you employing qualified black kids?” I wanted them to be busy, because if they had work to do, sometimes they wouldn’t get in difficulties. But if they had nothing to do, and they see nothing around them where blacks are doing anything, so it -- they underestimate, I think. Now, I think I was underestimated. [00:49:53] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Educational Philosophy Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, October 11, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013, regarding his reflections on his educational philosophy. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Oct-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Educational Philosophy Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/21963ef499738c00c736aa2ef260e64e.mp3 be0ce6f925d78731bcee68d2ddcd407a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harassment and Intimidation Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, October 11, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013, regarding his experience with harassment and intimidation due to perceived involvement with with desegregation. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Oct-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Harassment and Intimidation Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/0036cc32e2bf3577ed85d4e0c02fb7fa.pdf f3c908365fe3c86a49d0c7b152f25ec6 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: George Melvin Richardson INTERVIEWER: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: John Stanton DATE: October 11, 2013 Harassment and Intimidation Clip NARRATOR: [00:53:17] But they would send a fire truck to me sometimes, though I didn’t have a fire. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? NARRATOR: Well, they thought I was trying to work with integration. So I got those kind of things. They had a picture of me; I threw it away, because I didn’t want my sons -- they had had it -- about this size. INTERVIEWER: Like a size of a regular piece of paper. Like this? This size or something? NARRATOR: Yeah, the group did. I guess they didn’t like me too well, so they had -- they were at my school looking to do something. I lived across the street from the school. When I passed, I saw -- [00:54:00] I went there to see what they wanted. They took pictures of me and had my picture and all kind of blood strewn down like that. And then they put it -- and so we had a meeting, and they were talking about that. And I made some mention about it. I got some of my notes there that I thought it was one of the dirtiest things they could do, to have my picture. I wasn’t part of that group. I wouldn’t be a part of the group. But things like that happen. [00:54:33] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harassment and Intimidation Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, October 11, 2013, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson, on October 11, 2013, regarding his experiences with harassment and intimidation due to perceived involvement in desegregation efforts. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Oct-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Harassment and Intimidation Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c98570349f01b5225ab1cc3be351bc9d.mp3 ef3ffbaa93e5979c9db19ab6c21d1340 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public Seating Segregation Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, October 11, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013, regarding his reflections on legalized segregated seating at public events. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Oct-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Public Seating Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/fe8113695868c6c8508185abbb411bd9.pdf 9f6b6890e5e611778a9bf11839336a0b PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: George Melvin Richardson INTERVIEWER: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: John Stanton DATE: October 11, 2013 Public Seating Clip [00:39:39] And when they desegregated, they wanted to give me Hoffman-Boston with some of the not-able students. I said I won’t accept that. [00:40:00] And Harold Wilson and I were pretty good friends. You know Harold Wilson? He was principal of Wakefield at the time. I told him, I said, “George I tell you,” I said, “I’m not accepting.” He said, “I’m principal at Wakefield. I’ll take you as vice-principal at Wakefield.” So I went there as vice-principal. And another thing happened. They had an important scientist from Europe came to speak at one of the high schools, Wakefield. And James Stockard asked me if I’d been invited and I said “no.” He said, “Well, you will be invited.” And at that time, they had a regulation that when the groups met -- the blacks took the front seats on the inside, no other seats. And so, I told the -- [00:41:00] I said I’ve been invited. And so I told the parents to have cars there to take the kids there. And the policy was -- well, he had -- permission for parents to take them one place or another. So I told him that – Jim Stockard, he said, “Don’t worry about that. Go in” -- and he had one of the people at the school that wanted to call in, told him that he said, take them over there. So I took them over there. I said, “Now, I don’t want anyone to go -- I want to be the first to go there.” And so we got there at some -- before I got there, and they took seats, didn’t take the front seats. And Reid called me the next day. “I understood you went over to Wakefield and integrated the school.” I said, “I’m not principal there.” (laughter) I said, “Harold is principal there.” I said -- so I told Harold about it, [00:42:00] he said “He won’t say anything to you about it.” So that ended that. [00:42:03.65] NARRATOR: [00:51:55] And also, when they had this seating situation, that blacks sit on a certain side, [00:52:00] it had to be in all schools, hanging on the walls at all schools. Well, the kids didn’t like that. They’d take it out and throw it in the yard. They did it twice, so I went to Ed Rutter and told him that I’m not going to put that in my school anymore, because kids don’t want it. This could be the problem. So in high school we didn’t have it anymore. INTERVIEWER: It was like a seating chart showing where they could sit? NARRATOR: The law was, if you had an integrated situation, the blacks -- whites would be on one side, and the blacks on the other side. Now, we had a meeting at Washington-Lee one time, and I followed my president of the PTA, we went there, we were the only two blacks there. And the people who called the announcer came, and they saw us, and they demanded that they move us. The board wouldn’t do it. [00:53:00] So they called the police, and they reined the whole situation around. And it kind of quieted down. But we left, I got a lot of calls wanting to know if we got home OK. I told them we got home OK. But they would send a fire truck to me sometimes, though I didn’t have a fire. [00:53:23] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public Seating Segregation Clip - Oral History with George Melvin Richardson Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with George Melvin Richardson on October 11, 2013, regarding his reflections on legalized segregated seating at public events. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and John Stanton. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Oct-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111_Public Seating Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judy Knudsen and John Stanton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed George Melvin Richardson Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:17:45 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with George Melvin Richardson, January 11, 2013 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource George Melvin Richardson became the principal of Hoffman-Boston in the early 1950s after graduating with a bachelor’s degree from Langston University and later with a master’s degree from Columbia University, eventually completing the requirements for a doctorate degree as well. When Hoffman-Boston closed in 1964, he moved to Wakefield High School (along with many of his students who lived in Nauck/Green Valley and had attended Hoffman-Boston) and served as vice principal for two years. Mr. Richardson was interviewed by Judy Knudsen and John Stanton on October 11, 2013, and his interview is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from his oral history, regarding segregated seating at public events, his educational philosophy, and some of the harassment and intimidation he received from opponents to desegregation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource George Melvin Richardson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-Jan-13 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen and John Stanton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context richardsong20130111 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/8a3bb5d997bcf53aa8bc1e5e70b1d182.mp3 1239dda979b5c25ec6a1f8c075da63cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on February 21, 1986. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/e6eaa83251a704249a11cca4d6b829ff.pdf 1fa99910e7317770398db3a22a1b08a0 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 INTERVIEWER 1: This is the Arlington County Library Oral History Project. This is January 30, l986. With me is Cas Cocklin, a co volunteer with me in this Arlington County Oral History Project. We have the privilege today of interviewing Mrs. Dorothy Hamm, of Highview Park in Arlington. She's been a resident of Arlington since 1950. She's a native Virginian, and she played a very important role in a very traumatic period of Arlington history. Dorothy, you were born in Virginia? NARRATOR: Yes, I was. INTERVIEWER: When? NARRATOR: 1919, in Caroline County. INTERVIEWER: Caroline County is between Fredericksburg and Richmond, just off Route 1, is it? NARRATOR: That is right. INTERVIEWER: You came to Northern Virginia when? NARRATOR: I came to Northern Virginia about 1927, and I lived at Bailey's Crossroads in Fairfax County. INTERVIEWER: What was the situation at Bailey's Crossroads at that time? NARRATOR: Well, it was an entirely segregated situation, the schools and all other facilities and accommodations. INTERVIEWER: It was segregated. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, you are black. NARRATOR: Yes, I am. INTERVIEWER: And you have played quite a role in attempting to break up the segregation laws of Virginia, have you not? NARRATOR: Yes, I have because my feeling was that all people are equal. INTERVIEWER: I think we certainly can agree on that straight back to the days of Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence. Well, let me get back for a minute to your own personal history. You lived in Bailey's Crossroads for awhile. What was your first connection with Arlington County? NARRATOR: I moved to Arlington in l950, and from that date on [?] INTERVIEWER: You were married then? NARRATOR: Yes, I was. INTERVIEWER: When were you married? NARRATOR: I was married in 1942. INTERVIEWER: Was you husband in the service at that time? NARRATOR: Yes, he was in the service, but he actually was AWOL when we were married. INTERVIEWER: Well, he must have wanted to marry you pretty badly. NARRATOR: I think we both wanted to. INTERVIEWER: You have how many children? NARRATOR: I have three children. INTERVIEWER: And they were brought up in Arlington County? NARRATOR: Yes, they were. All of them attended Arlington schools, and they all graduated from Washington Lee High School. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, were you employed by the United States government after you came to Arlington, or how did you earn a living? NARRATOR: Well, I guess I can go back a little bit before coming to Arlington as far as earning a living. I came out of college in 1941, and… INTERVIEWER: What college had you attended? NARRATOR: Minor Teacher's College in Washington. The only type of job I could find at that time was a live in domestic job, taking care of a family of seven making $5.00 a week. INTERVIEWER: In Arlington? The family lived in Arlington? NARRATOR: Yes, that is right, they lived in Arlington. INTERVIEWER: After you came to Arlington in l950, you were married, and you got another kind of job then? NARRATOR: Well, at the time I came to Arlington I was working with the government. I had been with them for a few years prior to that. INTERVIEWER: And you then got your home in Highview Park which was formerly known as Hall's Hill? NARRATOR: Yes, we designed and built our own home, and we're still there. INTERVIEWER: What is the address? NARRATOR: 1900 North Cameron St. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, let's look at the conditions you found in Arlington in 1950 as far as the relationship between the races is concerned. Were there legal restrictions that were repugnant to members of the black race at that time? NARRATOR: Yes, there were. At that time, the schools were segregated. The libraries did not permit blacks. INTERVIEWER: You mean you could not come in and get a book in the library? NARRATOR: No, we did not the children could not in fact, we could not. INTERVIEWER: You're speaking of the public library? NARRATOR: As far as I can recall, the Arlington County Libraries were. The children obtained their information from the school libraries. INTERVIEWER: Was there any way adult blacks could obtain books from the library? NARRATOR: I do not believe it was [possible] after so many years I cannot really say. INTERVIEWER: Would you repeat about the hospitals because I did not get that? And the theatres you say the theatres remained segregated until about 1963. NARRATOR: Until about 1963. INTERVIEWER: What about the hospitals? NARRATOR: The hospitals were segregated. NARRATOR: Did they take maternity cases for blacks? NARRATOR: In some instances, they did, but the mother was put on a hall with the blacks, and the baby was allowed to be put in the nursery. INTERVIEWER: The baby was allowed to be desegregated that was very kind, but the mother had to remain in the segregated hall. What about public toilet facilities? NARRATOR: In many cases, there were no public toilet facilities for blacks in stores and in other places. INTERVIEWER: In the courthouse? NARRATOR: I am not certain about the courthouse but as far as I can recall yes, at the courthouse there was a sign that said "White Ladies Bathroom Facilities" and "Black Women" for the black people. INTERVIEWER: If you wanted to go to a meeting at which both blacks and whites attended, could you sit together? NARRATOR: In the early 50's we could after the county, or some people in the county discovered there was a seating law on the books, then we were not permitted to sit together. But there were several instances that I can recall that made me very uncomfortable one, in particular, was a school board meeting that I attended with 2 other blacks. When we arrived, there was a row of chairs almost to the ceiling. The whites sat on one side, and, of course, we were told that the blacks were to sit on the other side. There was also a time when I was chairman of the Health Committee this was prior to the building of Yorktown High School. I was a member of the County Council of PTA's at that time, and I was acting chairman of the health group. I had worked in my group for quite a number of months, but prior to the presentation at Stratford Junior High School I was informed that because of the seating law I would have to sit in a separate section from the white people that I had worked with previously. However, there were several people on my committee who said that I could not sit with them, but they could sit with me. INTERVIEWER: Well, they violated the law at that time themselves, as I remember, because you remember the famous case of Faith Bissell where she insisted on sitting in the shall I call it the black section and was arrested for that act. You recall the Supreme Court decision directing the desegregation of the public schools "with all deliberate speed" which was made in l954. After that time, you became rather active in the shall I call it the desegregation movement, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, I did. My reason for doing that was because I felt that with the Supreme Court's decision my two sons would have an opportunity to attend Stratford, an integrated school and I told them the meaning of the Supreme Court's decision, and I also told them that they would be going to Stratford. However, almost 2 years had passed, they still had not been permitted to attend; and this is why I really got involved. INTERVIEWER: What did you do? NARRATOR: On one occasion, my husband and I took our oldest son to Stratford in an attempt register him, and he was denied. I was also one of the original plaintiffs in the suit of 14 parents and 22 children. INTERVIEWER: What suit was this? NARRATOR: This was the suit that was filed by the N.A.A.C.P. in May of 1956, 2 years after the Supreme Court's decision. INTERVIEWER: This was the suit, was it, in the federal court for the Eastern District of Virginia before Judge Albert Bryan? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. INTERVIEWER: And you were one of the original plaintiffs? NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: Did you take any other action at that time other than participate in that suit? I mean were you involved in any other desegregation movements at that time? NARRATOR: Not really at that time. They came just a little bit later my suits involving the theatres, the hospital, eating places and working places. INTERVIEWER: May I ask, in these desegregation suits where the children were involved, what was the feeling of the children? Were they truly indignant and anxious for equality of education or opportunities or was there any compulsion on the part of the parents requiring the children's cooperation? NARRATOR: No, I think all the children were very eager to go. All of the parents were very anxious for their children to attend the school because they felt this was a better opportunity for their children knowing that all of them had attended segregated schools. NARRATOR: Well, there came a time, Dorothy, when Judge Bryan rendered his decision. Do you recall when and what that was? NARRATOR: Judge Bryan's original decision was that some of the children would attend school however, because of the school board's request for a stay this did not go into effect. Judge Bryan's decision in 1958 was that four of the 30 children who were plaintiffs in the case would be admitted to Stratford in February of 1959. INTERVIEWER: Do you recall who those children were? NARRATOR: Yes, they were Gloria Thompson, Michael Jones, Lance Newman and Ronald Deskins. INTERVIEWER: The parents of those children, were they neighbors of yours? They lived in Highview Park, did they? NARRATOR: Yes, we were all neighbors. We all lived in the segregated INTERVIEWER: And you all lived in the area that would be served by Stratford Junior High School? NARRATOR: That is right. INTERVIEWER: Stratford Junior High School is now closed. The building is still located just off Old Dominion Drive, is it not? NARRATOR: Yes, and Lorcum Lane. INTERVIEWER: What happened then? Were those children finally admitted in February l959? NARRATOR: Yes, the four children were admitted in February. INTERVIEWER: Meanwhile the United States District Court of the Eastern District of Virginia in Norfolk had declared the Massive Resistance Law in Virginia unconstitutional, had it not? NARRATOR: That is right. INTERVIEWER: And so there came a time that they would be admitted in February? NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: Tell us what happened, insofar as you know, at the time that they were actually admitted, on the morning. NARRATOR: Well, prior to their being admitted, I would guess over several years, we had been having workshops and meetings, and different churches had been helping us. I feel that the children were really prepared. The morning that they went to school INTERVIEWER: Excuse me just a minute, you say that the children were really prepared, it was a thing that would make them nervous, is it not? And then you were trying to prepare them for meeting possible hostility? NARRATOR: Yes, I'm sure any 11 or 12 year old child would be nervous in a situation of that kind. We had tried to explain to them the types of things that may happen, could happen, perhaps how they could accept or respond to some of these situations. And I think the day went somewhat smoothly. There were a few number of incidents but nothing to really upset the children. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any relationship or contact with any whites who were involved or interested in desegregation at that time? NARRATOR: Well, the morning that the children went to school I received a call from Theda Nehenle. INTERVIEWER: She lived near Stratford, did she? NARRATOR: She did. She lived perhaps 7 blocks from Stratford. INTERVIEWER: Did you know her? NARRATOR: I had gotten to know her, casually, because of her attendance at court when we were in court many times. INTERVIEWER: And she was on your side I mean she was in favor of desegregation of the schools? NARRATOR: Yes, she was. However, that morning she called and asked some of us if we would like to come over to her house and I was quite surprised to receive a favorable phone call because most phone calls that we had received had been a threatening type of phone call, and it made me feel very good to know that someone was sympathetic with us, that someone was really appreciative [?]. INTERVIEWER: Did you go to her house that day? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. We went to her house that morning. The parents of the 4 students went. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, my own wife, Elizabeth Campbell, who was a former member of the school board and had been active in the movement attempting to get desegregation was there also. NARRATOR: Yes, and present was also Mary Marshall. INTERVIEWER: Mary Marshall, now a member I don't know if she was then or not but now a member of the Virginia General Assembly. NARRATOR: Right. INTERVIEWER: And a number of others? NARRATOR: Right. Also present was Barbara Marx who had taken a very active part in the school situation. INTERVIEWER: Barbara Marx, as I recall, was one of the few white members of the N.A.A.C.P. She was a member of the N.A.A.C.P., was she not? NARRATOR: Yes, Barbara was a member of the N.A.A.C.P. She was also one of the original plaintiffs in the suit because she had signed up for her 2 daughters. There were also 2 other white persons who were plaintiffs in the suit. INTERVIEWER: Did Theda say anything, also, about the children coming by her home? NARRATOR: Yes, Theda indicated to me that after school if any of the children should want to come by her home and stay until they were picked up or until they later walked home, they were welcome to do so, and I thought this was very [?]. INTERVIEWER: The opening day of the desegregation of Stratford Junior High passed without any particular incident in the school? NARRATOR: Yes, it did. There may have been just a few minor remarks made, but on the whole it went very well. INTERVIEWER: Were the children reasonably well received, on the whole? NARRATOR: Yes, they were, especially the girl. There were the 3 boys. There was this one little white girl who welcomed the little black girl, and until this day they are still friends. INTERVIEWER: What has happened to those 4 original students? NARRATOR: Well, out of the 4 original students, 3 of them graduated from college; and at the present time Gloria is a social worker in Baltimore, MD. Michael is an auditor with an insurance company in Washington. Lance is an electronics engineer in Concordia, and Ronald is a firefighter in [?] County. They have all done very well. INTERVIEWER: Now, Dorothy, the admission of the 4 original students to Stratford Junior High certainly did not end the legal problems as far as desegregation is concerned. Tell us, did the schools proceed fairly smoothly after that toward desegregation in Arlington? NARRATOR: I would say, yes, they did up to a certain extent. After the 4 kids went in in February of l959, there was another group of 7 or more students that went in in September of '59. And after more court action, 7 or 8 kids were ordered into the schools about 2 weeks after schools had opened. This went pretty well. INTERVIEWER: How about your own children? NARRATOR: Well, my oldest son was 15 in the first group in September of '59. My younger son was with the children who were ordered in about 2 weeks after school opened in '59. There was one thing in, perhaps around December of '59, that concerned me a little bit. I was called by the principal of school because the children were participating in a musical that was to be held at Washington Lee, and I was asked if I would ask the black parents attending this musical to sit in a separate section; and, of course, I wanted to know why this was necessary because the children were all participating together. Well, I was told that the children were standing while singing, but if we attended we would be sitting, and therefore because of the law we would be required to sit in a separate section. INTERVIEWER: Did that come from the Arlington County Government? NARRATOR: This came from the principal of Washington Lee High School at that particular time. I would like to indicate that many of the parents attended this affair, and they sat wherever they wanted to, and nothing happened. INTERVIEWER: Tell us now what other steps you took or participated in to, shall I say, to complete legal desegregation in Arlington. NARRATOR: Well, after we once got our children into school, which I thought was one of the most important things, I became involved with the theatres. We were not allowed at the theatres. We started picketing the theatres in March of, I believe '62, and we were not allowed in the theatres until June of '64; and then it was only after quite a few of us had been arrested while picketing, and I was one of that group. We also were in court as a result of that; but the manager of the theatres, who at that time lived in Richmond, told us that if we would call off our picketing for 1 month, then we would be allowed to go into the theatres. On the first night when it was o.k. for us to go, my son and I and white couple were among the ones who went to the theatres. INTERVIEWER: Any particular incident of interest when you went into the theatre? NARRATOR: Well, I wasn't really sure whether they were going to let us in or not, so on that night a white couple and my son and I went to the theatre. The white couple purchased tickets, and when I went to purchase a ticket I wasn't really sure whether they were going to sell me a ticket or not. We had prearranged it where I would be given a ticket by one of the white people, and I was going into the theatre. However, it happened that we were sold tickets, and my son and I went into the theatre with the white couple. INTERVIEWER: You spoke earlier of Arlington County, or perhaps they were state, seating laws. Now with the theatre selling you tickets, was this their own decision or had the seating law been changed? NARRATOR: I don't believe the seating law well I'm not certain about that. I do know that it was a decision made by the manager of the theatres. However, prior to this NARRATOR: Did you know him? Mr. Wade Pearson? NARRATOR: This was Mr. Thalmeiner. Prior to this, I had been called by the manager of the Glebe Theatre, and he had indicated even if he gave blacks separate seating they only had one toilet facility, and separate toilet facilities were also required in order to make [?]. INTERVIEWER: When was that practice of separate toilet facilities abandoned in Arlington? Later? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. INTERVIEWER: Was it abandoned by custom or abandoned by the position of the law? NARRATOR: Well, I don't have too much legal mind so I'm not real sure which it was, but I know that in the course of time they did do away with the separate toilet facilities. INTERVIEWER: I don't recall a Virginia law. There may have one requiring separate toilet facilities, but it was almost the universal practice in fact, it was the universal practice throughout Virginia and the entire South at that time. NARRATOR: That's quite true. INTERVIEWER: Well, now, Dorothy, I don't know if you've mentioned it, but in the earlier days you were not even able to shop in stores, were you? Regularly? Or some stores? NARRATOR: Some stores we could shop in. Other stores we were not allowed to buy merchandise. However, we could go in and look around and look at things we would like to have, but the clerks at that time were all white; and, of course, they would not have to wait on us. Therefore, we could do no shopping. INTERVIEWER: What about the necessities? Food and things like that as well as things like hardware. Where did you get those things, or did you have to go to black shops to buy those things? NARRATOR: Well, we were talking about the 50's. We could shop at Safeway and other stores. However, we could not work there. We could shop at many stores during that time, but we still were not allowed to work in those stores. And I guess it was back in the 50's and 60's that I became involved with three Safeway stores and the drugstores also the liquor stores and a means of picketing hoping that they would provide employment for the blacks. It took quite a few years, and in some cases it took [?]. INTERVIEWER: Even after desegregation became effective, you still had a good deal of harassment as you mentioned. Can you elaborate on that a little more? NARRATOR: One incident I would like to mention regarding People's Drug Store. As you know, we were not allowed to sit down and eat there. INTERVIEWER: This was when the People's Drug Stores had counters and were serving snack meals and sodas and stuff. NARRATOR: That's right. After Sunday School one Sunday, my son and his friend went to People's Drug Store and sat down to be served. The white fellow sitting on the seat next to him pushed him from the seat to the floor, and this upset my son terribly. He came home and told me about it. This also annoyed me because I felt after many years of struggle and many years of court decisions that we should be able to at least sit at a counter and eat if we were hungry. INTERVIEWER: Racial prejudice has existed, as you know, from the beginning of time, and it's awfully hard to get it out of the hearts of men. NARRATOR: That is quite true. At one time I thought it was the law that was against us, but I found out that it was the hearts of many people, also. There are many people with very black hearts. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, were there any cross burnings in Arlington? NARRATOR: Yes, there were several cross burnings in our area. One was in the yard of a family who took their children to school to be admitted prior to the Supreme Court's decision. The other was in the yard of Dr. Harold Johnson who also took his two girls to be admitted to school, but they were denied. INTERVIEWER: Dr. Harold Johnson was a really distinguished black physician who lived was it on Lexington St.? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. INTERVIEWER: Now deceased? NARRATOR: Yes, he is deceased. However, he was one of the most outstanding physicians in Arlington. He did very much to help blacks. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned, off the record, the pupil placement forms. What do you want to say about that, Dorothy? NARRATOR: Well, the pupil placement form was used as a means of assigning children to different schools, at that time they were all segregated schools. My husband and I refused to sign the pupil placement form. As a result, because our son had not been ordered into school through the courts, he was out of school several weeks; and we had to go into court along with another parent in order to have our son and the other student to attend the school. However, at the time, our son had to go back to Hoffman Boston. INTERVIEWER: You mention Hoffman Boston. What kind of school was that? NARRATOR: Hoffman Boston was Arlington's only black school located in the southern part of Arlington, and we lived in the northern part of Arlington much closer to Stratford or other schools. INTERVIEWER: I think you mean the only junior senior high school. There were 2 elementary schools. NARRATOR: Yes, it was a combination junior senior high. INTERVIEWER: And this was before l959, of course. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, the pupil placement board, while theoretically placing students anywhere they wanted under the pupil placement forms, in practice always placed the white children in certain schools and the black children in other schools. Am I right on that? NARRATOR: This is my understanding. INTERVIEWER: Now did you have any other experiences or did your children have any other experiences that you want to relate about in school? NARRATOR: Well, after my oldest son started Stratford, he was interested in wrestling, and he was not allowed to participate in wrestling because of body contact so we ended up in court again in order to have him to participate in the physical activities. INTERVIEWER: And he was admitted then? NARRATOR: Yes, he was. INTERVIEWER: The court decided? NARRATOR: Right, he was, and there was also another parent and a student who were involved, and they both were allowed. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, you mentioned the various court cases. Were you bearing the burden of the cost of those or was there pro bono work going on from either white or black law firms who were helping with that? NARRATOR: The N.A.A.C.P. took charge of the cost, as far as I can recall, for a couple of court cases at that time, and they also represented us in court. INTERVIEWER: Was Tom Monroe, now a Circuit judge, was he involved in any of those cases? NARRATOR: I can't recall that he was. INTERVIEWER: He is now a black judge in Arlington. NARRATOR: However, lawyer Alexander from South Arlington did work with the parents and the parent groups in order to prepare our children and to prepare the parents; and we had many, many of those meetings over a period of 2 years. INTERVIEWER: Any other incidents that you wish to relate with respect to the 4 children that were admitted to Stratford Junior High School? NARRATOR: I can't recall any at this time incidents involving the children after they were admitted. However, there was a meeting with the parents of the 4 children back in December of 1958. Congressman Joel P. Broyhill called one of the parents and asked if he could meet with the parents only, which he did at the home of one of the parents. At this particular meeting, he tried to discourage the parents from sending their children because he felt, perhaps, this would not be the best for the children. INTERVIEWER: Anyone else you want to mention? NARRATOR: Yes, I would like to mention Mrs. A.J.E. Davis. I call her Jerri. She was one of the original pioneers. She was also the person that took the first 3 black students to Stratford to register in about 1957. INTERVIEWER: To try to register? NARRATOR: Well, yes, to attempt to register, but they were denied. INTERVIEWER: And she is white? NARRATOR: Oh, yes, Jerri is definitely a white person. INTERVIEWER: And I might just mention also that Theda Henley who called you on the day of the opening of Stratford to desegregation, she was also a white person, was she not? NARRATOR: Yes, she was also a white person. INTERVIEWER: You have some figures there with respect to the number of black students that were admitted to Arlington schools in the first 2 or 3 years after desegregation. NARRATOR: Yes, in the fall of 1959, there were 23 Negro students at Stratford; and in 1960 there were 42 students in the schools of Arlington; and in 1961 there were approximately 100 students in the integrated schools; and since that time the problem hasn't been great in children being in integrated Arlington schools. However, the busing of students across county did become a problem a little bit later. INTERVIEWER: What other comments do you want to make with respect to the general condition of desegregation in Arlington schools. Is it reasonably well implemented now? NARRATOR: Yes, I think it has gone reasonably well. There are still some little minor problems. I think many of the children being permitted to go to integrated schools the ones that have graduated, it has really helped them. We have found that over one half of the children who were involved back in the 50's have been college graduates. Some of them hold doctor's degrees, and many of them are in business for themselves. Quite a few of them hold professional positions, and I think much of this came about because of our struggle for equality back in the 50's and 60's. INTERVIEWER: To close these very interesting stories you have given us, do you have any final remarks that you would like to make as to the progress that has been made in Arlington County? NARRATOR: I think there has been lots of progress made with students in the schools and also with the adults. However, even in the schools, our students are looked at many times as black students. We're looked at as black people, and I would be very hopeful that the time would come when we could be looked at as students or just people without being identified as black. INTERVIEWER: We have just shared as a nation the birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. That was his great wish, and I think I share it, and I'm sure Cas shares it with you; and as far as I'm concerned that's what you are. NARRATOR: Well, thank you. Martin Luther King had a dream, and, of course, we too have a dream. Much of our dream has been fulfilled, but there is still much of the dream to be filled. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. I hope we can live together all races fulfilling all our dreams. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on February 21, 1986. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/537aaa8dd3bd4c0280f351c6ddfacbec.mp3 c8f1ec1a5448ddc1903f6352129b87eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Athletics Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of the desegregation of school athletics. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Athletics Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/8630ffbc784454cb96ebaa28b04784c0.pdf a380b5e66abdd2d1d4e1ee7439ea51e9 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 Athletics Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:38:40] Now did you have any other experiences or did your children have any other experiences that you want to relate about in school? NARRATOR: Well, after my oldest son started Stratford, he was interested in wrestling, and he was not allowed to participate in wrestling because of body contact so we ended up in court again in order to have him to participate in the physical activities. INTERVIEWER: And he was admitted then? NARRATOR: Yes, he was. INTERVIEWER: The court decided? NARRATOR: Right, he was, and there was also another parent and a student who were involved, and they both were allowed. INTERVIEWER 2: Dorothy, you mentioned the various court cases. Were you bearing the burden of the cost of those or was there pro bono work going on from either white or black law firms who were helping with that? NARRATOR: The N.A.A.C.P. took charge of the cost, as far as I can recall, for a couple of court cases at that time, and they also represented us in court. [00:40:06] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Athletics Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of the desegregation of school athletics. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Athletics Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/70ef2b6649cc5fd47605e30640dec3d3.mp3 40e9e5ef39f669481b2edbb80a3d8e26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Day Of Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of the day of the desegregation of Stratford. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Day Of Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/45ac1232d22904f3c47d5c4eeb3d204c.pdf e625713816fdd3e20843141b31c2d55d PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 “The Day Of” Clip NARRATOR: [00:17:31] Well, prior to their being admitted, I would guess over several years, we had been having workshops and meetings, and different churches had been helping us. I feel that the children were really prepared. The morning that they went to school INTERVIEWER: Excuse me just a minute, you say that the children were really prepared, it was a thing that would make them nervous, is it not? And then you were trying to prepare them for meeting possible hostility? NARRATOR: Yes, I'm sure any 11 or 12-year-old child would be nervous in a situation of that kind. We had tried to explain to them the types of things that may happen, could happen, perhaps how they could accept or respond to some of these situations. And I think the day went somewhat smoothly. There were a few number of incidents but nothing to really upset the children. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any relationship or contact with any whites who were involved or interested in desegregation at that time? NARRATOR: Well, the morning that the children went to school I received a call from Theda Henle. INTERVIEWER: She lived near Stratford, did she? NARRATOR: She did. She lived perhaps 7 blocks from Stratford. INTERVIEWER: Did you know her? NARRATOR: I had gotten to know her, casually, because of her attendance at court when we were in court many times. INTERVIEWER: And she was on your side I mean she was in favor of desegregation of the schools? NARRATOR: Yes, she was. However, that morning she called and asked some of us if we would like to come over to her house and I was quite surprised to receive a favorable phone call because most phone calls that we had received had been a threatening type of phone call, and it made me feel very good to know that someone was sympathetic with us, that someone was really appreciative [?]. INTERVIEWER: Did you go to her house that day? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. We went to her house that morning. The parents of the 4 students went. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, my own wife, Elizabeth Campbell, who was a former member of the school board and had been active in the movement attempting to get desegregation was there also. NARRATOR: Yes, and present was also Mary Marshall. INTERVIEWER: Mary Marshall, now a member I don't know if she was then or not but now a member of the Virginia General Assembly. NARRATOR: Right. [00:20:54] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Day Of Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of the day of the desegregation of Stratford. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Day Of Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/e27e709967dd2818e2e82c68517e1f7c.mp3 b7fc0d12f64cf7ffab55b113f5a9bd9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lawsuit and Activism Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of her involvement in legal battles for desegregation. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Lawsuit and Activism Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/6c6719cc085bd36802fa38dc9cd49776.pdf e476f5ba72933020d32b5d6d6c9e2ebc PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 Lawsuit and Activism Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:11:37] You recall the Supreme Court decision directing the desegregation of the public schools "with all deliberate speed" which was made in l954. After that time, you became rather active in the shall I call it the desegregation movement, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, I did. My reason for doing that was because I felt that with the Supreme Court's decision my two sons would have an opportunity to attend Stratford, an integrated school and I told them the meaning of the Supreme Court's decision, and I also told them that they would be going to Stratford. However, almost 2 years had passed, they still had not been permitted to attend; and this is why I really got involved. INTERVIEWER: What did you do? NARRATOR: On one occasion, my husband and I took our oldest son to Stratford in an attempt register him, and he was denied. I was also one of the original plaintiffs in the suit of 14 parents and 22 children. INTERVIEWER: What suit was this? NARRATOR: This was the suit that was filed by the N.A.A.C.P. in May of 1956, 2 years after the Supreme Court's decision. INTERVIEWER: This was the suit, was it, in the federal court for the Eastern District of Virginia before Judge Albert Bryan? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. INTERVIEWER: And you were one of the original plaintiffs? NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: Did you take any other action at that time other than participate in that suit? I mean were you involved in any other desegregation movements at that time? NARRATOR: Not really at that time. They came just a little bit later my suits involving the theatres, the hospital, eating places and working places. INTERVIEWER 2: May I ask, in these desegregation suits where the children were involved, what was the feeling of the children? Were they truly indignant and anxious for equality of education or opportunities or was there any compulsion on the part of the parents requiring the children's cooperation? NARRATOR: No, I think all the children were very eager to go. All of the parents were very anxious for their children to attend the school because they felt this was a better opportunity for their children knowing that all of them had attended segregated schools. NARRATOR: Well, there came a time, Dorothy, when Judge Bryan rendered his decision. Do you recall when and what that was? NARRATOR: Judge Bryan's original decision was that some of the children would attend school however, because of the school board's request for a stay this did not go into effect. Judge Bryan's decision in 1958 was that four of the 30 children who were plaintiffs in the case would be admitted to Stratford in February of 1959. [00:15:36.490] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lawsuit and Activism Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of her involvement in legal battles for desegregation. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Lawsuit and Activism Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/a3ff3842f98c6a9f28e37de19c763e77.mp3 22defc3f58dc3e7a33c7968c9055e503 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public Seating Laws Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of legalized segregated seating at public events. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Public Seating Laws Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/1f4ec0b83c6497c6663b9f59e4328c02.pdf 50df2a0e1696c897e12924b0fb1935f1 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 Public Seating Laws Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:09:05] If you wanted to go to a meeting at which both blacks and whites attended, could you sit together? NARRATOR: In the early 50's we could after the county, or some people in the county discovered there was a seating law on the books, then we were not permitted to sit together. But there were several instances that I can recall that made me very uncomfortable one, in particular, was a school board meeting that I attended with 2 other blacks. When we arrived, there was a row of chairs almost to the ceiling. The whites sat on one side, and, of course, we were told that the blacks were to sit on the other side. There was also a time when I was chairman of the Health Committee this was prior to the building of Yorktown High School. I was a member of the County Council of PTA's at that time, and I was acting chairman of the health group. I had worked in my group for quite a number of months, but prior to the presentation at Stratford Junior High School I was informed that because of the seating law I would have to sit in a separate section from the white people that I had worked with previously. However, there were several people on my committee who said that I could not sit with them, but they could sit with me. [00:11:15] INTERVIEWER: [00:23:54] Now, Dorothy, the admission of the 4 original students to Stratford Junior High certainly did not end the legal problems as far as desegregation is concerned. Tell us, did the schools proceed fairly smoothly after that toward desegregation in Arlington? NARRATOR: I would say, yes, they did up to a certain extent. After the 4 kids went in in February of l959, there was another group of 7 or more students that went in in September of '59. And after more court action, 7 or 8 kids were ordered into the schools about 2 weeks after schools had opened. This went pretty well. INTERVIEWER: How about your own children? NARRATOR: Well, my oldest son was 15 in the first group in September of '59. My younger son was with the children who were ordered in about 2 weeks after school opened in '59. There was one thing in, perhaps around December of '59, that concerned me a little bit. I was called by the principal of school because the children were participating in a musical that was to be held at Washington Lee, and I was asked if I would ask the black parents attending this musical to sit in a separate section; and, of course, I wanted to know why this was necessary because the children were all participating together. Well, I was told that the children were standing while singing, but if we attended we would be sitting, and therefore because of the law we would be required to sit in a separate section. INTERVIEWER: Did that come from the Arlington County Government? NARRATOR: This came from the principal of Washington Lee High School at that particular time. I would like to indicate that many of the parents attended this affair, and they sat wherever they wanted to, and nothing happened. [00:26:30] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public Seating Laws Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of legalized segregated seating at public events. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Public Seating Laws Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/e74446d45783f48921db702981f8c85d.mp3 79d2524761c2b3d94b5a85d09a23e746 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Racial Harassment and Intimidation Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of racial harassment and intimidation in Arlington County. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Racial Harassment and Intimidation Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/d568c480bd7eba3b7fe482e94f720641.pdf b260d08303353e95e58c96a53034cc52 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Dorothy M. Hamm INTERVIEWER 1: Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWR 2: Cas Cocklin DATE: February 21, l986 Racial Harassment and Intimidation Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:33:16] Even after desegregation became effective, you still had a good deal of harassment as you mentioned. Can you elaborate on that a little more? NARRATOR: One incident I would like to mention regarding People's Drug Store. As you know, we were not allowed to sit down and eat there. INTERVIEWER: This was when the People's Drug Stores had counters and were serving snack meals and sodas and stuff. NARRATOR: That's right. After Sunday School one Sunday, my son and his friend went to People's Drug Store and sat down to be served. The white fellow sitting on the seat next to him pushed him from the seat to the floor, and this upset my son terribly. He came home and told me about it. This also annoyed me because I felt after many years of struggle and many years of court decisions that we should be able to at least sit at a counter and eat if we were hungry. INTERVIEWER: Racial prejudice has existed, as you know, from the beginning of time, and it's awfully hard to get it out of the hearts of men. NARRATOR: That is quite true. At one time I thought it was the law that was against us, but I found out that it was the hearts of many people, also. There are many people with very black hearts. INTERVIEWER: Dorothy, were there any cross burnings in Arlington? NARRATOR: Yes, there were several cross burnings in our area. One was in the yard of a family who took their children to school to be admitted prior to the Supreme Court's decision. The other was in the yard of Dr. Harold Johnson who also took his two girls to be admitted to school, but they were denied. INTERVIEWER: Dr. Harold Johnson was a really distinguished black physician who lived was it on Lexington St.? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. INTERVIEWER: Now deceased? NARRATOR: Yes, he is deceased. However, he was one of the most outstanding physicians in Arlington. He did very much to help blacks. [00:36:10] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Racial Harassment and Intimidation Clip - Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Dorothy Hamm on January 30, 1986, regarding her memories of racial harassment and intimidation in Arlington County. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130_Racial Harassment and Intimidation Clip.mp3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edmund Campbell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dorothy Hamm Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:48:10 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 170kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Dorothy Hamm, January 30, 1986 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Dorothy Hamm moved to Arlington in 1950, around the age of 33, after graduating from Minor Teacher’s College in Washington, D.C. Ms. Hamm lived in Hall’s Hill, a close-knit and supportive African American community in segregated Arlington County. Her commitment to activism was crucial to desegregation in the county, from public schools to movie theaters. She was interviewed by Edmund Campbell and Cas Cocklin on February 21, 1986, and her oral history is available in its full audio and typed transcription forms. You can also read and listen to several excerpts from her interview, regarding her memories of the lawsuit leading up to the desegregation of Stratford Junior High, her memories of the first day Ronald, Michael, Lance, and Gloria attended Stratford, her experience fighting segregated seating at public events, the struggle to desegregate school athletics, and the presence of racial harassment and intimidation in Arlington. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothy Hamm Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30-Jan-86 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context hammd19860130 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/338e05877e2687b2e573c595222b27ce.mp3 b240ef469e5684885429996a0da89b4e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Iwith Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c85e60f7e8644f0b3ac650a8e4c8b7ab.pdf 54da534172a960fa91e162d8eb0e30fb PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Hoffman-Boston School” NARRATOR: Carolyn Crittendon INTERVIEWER: Brenda Brittain DATE: April 23, 2016 INTERVIEWER: [00:00:05] Today, April 23, 2016, I’m in the presence of Carolyn Carr Crittendon, who attended Hoffman-Boston High School—Junior-Senior High School—in the county. We’re here at the Central Library. My name is Brenda Brittain, the interviewer, and Carolyn graduated in 1965, I believe, from Wakefield High School, so she has experienced the first year of integration here, when the schools were forced to integrate, and also attended a segregated system. We want to reflect some on the history, or some of her experiences, at Hoffman-Boston Junior-Senior High School, and I just want to start off by asking a question. Carolyn, when did you first go to Hoffman-Boston High School? [00:01:00] How long have you been in the county? NARRATOR: Well, I’ve been in the county for about twenty years. I was in the county, and I started—I guess it would have been my ninth grade, I guess, when we went. Or it may have been earlier, seventh grade or junior high school, right after I finished at Drew, I guess. INTERVIEWER: Yes, and Drew is the elementary school, which would have been a feeder school to Hoffman-Boston. NARRATOR: In Arlington. That's right. INTERVIEWER: And when you entered that facility as, I guess, a twelve year old—or something like around twelve or maybe eleven years old—what did you think when you first saw Hoffman-Boston? Do you remember? NARRATOR: Oh, wow. INTERVIEWER: Can you think back to that time? NARRATOR: Well, I can imagine—yeah, it was [00:02:01] a new experience, but I had known some of the students who attended that were older than me, and I was anxious to get to HB, and it was a very—I would describe it as being as kind of a family kind of environment. INTERVIEWER: How was it a family environment? NARRATOR: In that I knew most of the people, even though I had lived in Green Valley and the school was on Johnson Hill. But I knew [00:03:00] a lot of the families on Johnson Hill, and so, from that standpoint, I felt that I was around people that I knew—a lot more of a community feel than any place I’ve probably lived since. These days, very often, you don’t really meet your neighbors necessarily if you’re in an apartment. You might see some faces, but you don’t really know them to the extent that I felt that I knew the people when I went into—when I left Drew Elementary and when I went into Hoffman-Boston. Years later, looking back, I definitely see a very big difference in [00:04:00] the community part of it. INTERVIEWER: So, the community had more of a feeling of watchfulness and family and presence from the time that you were in— NARRATOR: When I grew up, yeah— INTERVIEWER: —and when you grew up. NARRATOR: —in segregated Virginia, I guess I should say—during that period. INTERVIEWER: Segregation was legal in Virginia at this moment [Editor’s note: Circa 1960]. NARRATOR: Right. INTERVIEWER: What was—what about your classes and all? At this point in time, you would have been in the seventh grade. It seems as if there would have been some different classes and choices you would have to make transitioning from elementary school. Can you go back to that time? NARRATOR: Only—let’s see. INTERVIEWER: What impressions can you gather? NARRATOR: Well, actually, I think I came across probably my favorite teacher, once I made a [00:05:01] switch from my college prep classes, pretty much, I think, and switched to the business classes. And that’s when I came in contact with Ms. Griffin, that I really appreciate her structure and direction and her insisting on excellence and insisting that you practiced every day. And she just had a very loving but yet insisting on your excellence. And yet, it wasn’t a [00:06:01] harsh type of approach that made you resent it. It was like you could really see how she was pushing you to be the best and being—doing your best was important. And she instilled that upon us, and in my shorthand class is where I remember her. And even to this day, I’ve still held on to that skill, and many, many, many years I’ve applied it. And so, I guess that’s one of the reasons that she stands out to me. But Mr. Haygood I remember so distinctly because I was not used to getting a D on tests, and in math, which wasn’t my [00:07:00] strong suit at all, I got this D, and I made this decision that I was going to switch from my college prep to business. Mr. Haygood [Editor’s note: Neal Haygood] made this sarcastic remark when I approached him about the fact that I wanted to leave, and he made this comment that, “Carolyn is leaving math to go to an even harder class,” or something to that effect. I can’t remember the exact words, but I knew that he was being facetious really, and somehow that always stuck with me. But I knew even then though that I was going to still proceed to go to college. Eventually I would get it done, and I ended up [00:08:00] traveling another road and getting a lot of that done in the evening. But I eventually finally graduated from Howard, which is the route that I would have been on had I not made that switch. But the business route worked out pretty much for me, and I guess there’s a reason that I took that road. But the shorthand has just been invaluable to me. I love to write, and I love to take notes from different activities and lectures and every—you know—just learning—lifelong learning experience has been invaluable for me to have that skill. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well, tell me. Now, Mrs. Griffin’s name—what was it? Gwendolyn Griffin, if I remember correctly. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). She was married to the [00:09:01] physical ed teacher, right? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, she was. Yes. And she was the one that instilled excellence but with a very soft and loving hand. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: Now, as I understand it—and please, I’m not—I don’t—I never took any of the classes. You took Gregg Shorthand. NARRATOR: Gregg, Diamond Jubilee, yes. Gregg—that’s a long— INTERVIEWER: Which was considered to be—at that point in time was considered to be the—what was being used but was not an easy something to master, as I understand it, in terms of gaining speed. So, how was she able to instill that speed? And we’re talking—what other classes did you also take under that format of the so-called business area? NARRATOR: Typing, if I can remember back—but typing and shorthand were the two main classes that I took [00:10:01] under that category, which allowed us to, once we got to the twelfth grade, take the civil service exam at that time, and that’s how I got into government and took that way into work—the workplace. So, then I immediately enrolled in Northern Virginia—I forgot to mention that—Northern Virginia Community College, and then later I transferred to some of the other four year— INTERVIEWER: But concentrating on Hoffman-Boston once again, when we went, there was a new wing that was opened up that had the new business—the typewriters and everything. You remember that—walking in the room with the typewriters and that kind of thing. NARRATOR: I can’t say that— INTERVIEWER: You don’t remember that? NARRATOR:—that’s one of those— INTERVIEWER: Because we didn’t have electric— NARRATOR: —memories— INTERVIEWER: We did not have electric typewriters or keyboards. I just want to say that [00:11:00] for the audience. NARRATOR: Oh, okay. INTERVIEWER: We had the actual manual typewriters. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah—Cortez Peters, I remember knowing about as a brilliant typist back in those days. Yeah, manual definitely was the way. And you had mentioned—to go back to what you were saying about the Diamond Jubilee Gregg Shorthand, yeah, that had to do with—though it had some brief forms where you had to memorize, it mainly was writing what you hear. And so, in some ways, it felt like learning a foreign language, really. So, I had a whole different set of symbols that represented the sounds, and so it was a long shorthand technique as opposed to simplified and some of the older methods [00:12:00] that had more brief forms. INTERVIEWER: And what math class did you transfer from and go into? NARRATOR: I don’t know. For some reason— INTERVIEWER: Seemed like there was a general math. NARRATOR: New math. I don’t know where that little terminology— INTERVIEWER: And when did you make that change? What grade did you make that change? NARRATOR: I think it was possibly—I don’t know—nine or ten. I’m not sure. INTERVIEWER: In the ninth or tenth grade. NARRATOR: Ninth or tenth. Yeah. Yep, as I look back—that I made that switch—and then I got very much attached to the shorthand, which— INTERVIEWER: So then, upon meeting Mrs. Griffin, who became your favorite teacher at that moment, how many classes did you take from her? NARRATOR: Well, I guess it was from the tenth grade to the twelfth. I was taking, I believe, [00:13:01] shorthand. Ten through eleven. Either it was two years or it could have been three. I’m not sure. INTERVIEWER: Were there any other classes that you enjoyed? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. I certainly enjoyed singing, music. I was okay in physical education, actually. It wouldn’t have been my favorite, and English. Those are the ones that I remember. I had a short stint in home economics, and I remember making an apron. And then, when it was time to iron the apron, I burned the imprint of the iron on my apron, which was a light blue [00:14:01] apron. So, in hindsight, at least having that exposure to those things—I wish I had learned how to sew a lot better rather than just that little initial apron. INTERVIEWER: During your — while you attended Hoffman-Boston, did you ever come in contact with Mr. Richardson in any form or fashion? Or perhaps the vice principal, Mrs. Robinson. NARRATOR: Well, not from being sent to the office or anything. Just in passing. INTERVIEWER: Just in passing? NARRATOR: You know, just in passing. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was there anything about his leadership or example that you remember? NARRATOR: Well, actually, in reflecting back, he certainly [00:15:00] always presented a very professional persona in the time that I recall his being the principal. And I really did sense that he certainly took his position very seriously and that he was there to help mold us the best that we could be. I did get that from him. And years later, as we had reunions, that still came across as—that definitely was part of his mission. INTERVIEWER: When you attended Hoffman-Boston, did you have any inkling or any feeling whatsoever that you were [00:15:59] gaining an under—receiving a sub-standard education? NARRATOR: No. Unh-uh (negative). Absolutely not. And in hindsight, I definitely don’t think it was sub anything. I definitely feel that my foundation is stronger as I now can see my daughter—my daughter’s education is completely after, of course, post-segregation, and some of that foundation that I got in elementary and HB is—to me, I definitely see it as being stronger, actually, to be built on. INTERVIEWER: Any particular facets that you can identify as a foundation that you received that you see a little lacking now? NARRATOR: [00:17:01] Probably in English, grammar, and those kinds of areas. Yeah. Absolutely, I do see a difference, and going back to things like that home economics and that kind of area—vocational area, I think, they had that whole vocational piece—you know. I think at some point they moved away from that, and it’s not necessarily a positive at this point. I’m seeing that more and more—maybe some people who are very good with their hands could have very well become very successful following through on those aspects and could possibly have their own business, whereas they’re dropping out so much more than I [00:18:00] ever remember my friends dropping out of school. I mean, it was just a given that everyone was going to go to school and finish; and now, that’s not a given at all. That's highly not likely to be happening more frequently. INTERVIEWER: What would you say about catching the bus? I think you had to catch the bus to the school. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Which may have been like two and a half or three miles, I believe. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: That's how far it is. I will probably have to check that from where you lived. How was that experience for you? What time did you have to catch the bus? Do you remember? And— NARRATOR: Oh, I can’t remember the exact timing but early in the morning. I remember Miss Mamie Gant, I think, was my bus driver. I remember that, and she definitely had a strong discipline hand. [00:19:01] But I didn’t really have any bad experiences on the bus. But, yeah— INTERVIEWER: But you remember a strong bus driver. NARRATOR: I remember a strong one in control of the situation on the bus, that’s for sure. Yeah. And even knowing the bus driver in the community, which is a very different experience now in the educational arena—very seldom would—I wouldn’t expect necessarily to know even any of the teachers in the community necessarily. But back then, that was pretty possible. That was definitely a possibility. INTERVIEWER: So, many of the people—teachers—anyone working in the school system that we came in contact with— NARRATOR: Outside of the— INTERVIEWER: —would have lived in [00:20:00] the community or went to church or you would have some knowledge of them, and they would have had some knowledge of you—that kind of thing. NARRATOR: Yeah. And that goes back to that community part that we were mentioning before, because—and that’s a big—how shall I say—a void now. We’ve lost a lot of that it seems, and maybe when you look back at things, maybe things always seemed to look better in some ways. But quite definitely, there are quite a few concrete things that I can put my finger on that are definitely lacking that I remember having in the past. And more and more, I can see how important they were. INTERVIEWER: At HB, [00:21:00] was there ever a sense that some students were favored by the teachers as opposed to others? NARRATOR: I guess that’s probably possible in some areas. I guess maybe that’s kind of a—I don’t know. INTERVIEWER: To your knowledge, for whatever reason— NARRATOR: For whatever reason, maybe here and there. I may have noticed that from— INTERVIEWER: Do you think that fashion was a part of going to school at HB? NARRATOR: Well, yes. From our community, I definitely think that’s who we are. You know. That's who we’ve been, and we did take pride in how we looked, our hair, [00:22:01] what we wore, and all of that was definitely part of our culture. INTERVIEWER: Well, do you think that maybe part of that came from the emphasis that—from the teachers and from our—from the community and our parents— NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: —that we had to be the best at all times? NARRATOR: Yes. I do think that is historically one of the—how can I say—that’s just been part of our culture and our customs and practices to try—so that we could function in this society as it is. And so, yes, always [00:23:00] making sure you had clean underwear in case you had to go to the hospital kind of thing is an old saying that I recall, and I’ve heard it repeated many, many times. So, yes, definitely fashion and style and feeling good about how you looked and those kinds of things, I think, were a very important— INTERVIEWER: What about social activities at the school? NARRATOR: Well, I do remember loving to dance and the Motown era, and I liked dancing—hand dancing, which is interesting in today’s time to see classes for hand dancing. I’m like, classes? No. We never had a class. We just did that. So, it’s interesting to see [00:24:00] the things that have been maintained over time or have lasted over time. And that includes some of the music that has—some of the artists who have lasted over time. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any particular activity after school that would have fostered that kind—social activities, dances, or the big game? NARRATOR: I remember the recreation center—the rec center—the Carver Center, where we had dances before it moved to the location that it’s at, at this time. There was a small building on—I forget the street. It was probably one street over, and we used to have dances there as well as [00:25:00] in individual homes sometimes. We certainly would have dances and dancing and the music was a big part of my growing up, actually. And of course, basketball games—I kind of liked basketball a little more than football, so attending games was another activity. INTERVIEWER: Did you participate as a booster or a cheerleader or any of that kind of thing? NARRATOR: No, I never became a cheerleader. But I followed games on my—my husband played on basketball game and on the basketball team and so— INTERVIEWER: But he wasn’t your husband at that point in time. NARRATOR: Oh, no. Absolutely not at that particular time. My boyfriend at that time played on the team, so I [00:26:00] just went to watch, to be supportive. I wasn’t a cheerleader. INTERVIEWER: Regarding the sports program, I guess to a certain extent it was limited to perhaps football. That came a little later, but there was a basketball team. We had some players who made some success at that that came out of Hoffman-Boston. What comes to mind is Harvey Crittendon, whom Carolyn had married later in life. Can you tell us about some of the—what kinds of things he was able to achieve with the basketball and how Hoffman-Boston played into that? NARRATOR: Right. Yes, he was on the junior varsity and varsity teams for HB [00:27:00] and then for Wakefield as well. And he did manage to receive an all-American status during one of his—I think it was probably his junior or senior year. And in fact, I’m still trying to find a Washington Post article on that announcement. And he did receive some offers for college; however, he was drafted and, after that Vietnam period, he never did have the opportunity to actually follow through on, say, [00:28:00] Duke University or Georgia Tech. I can’t really remember all of the offers. INTERVIEWER: He received more than one offer as a result of the Wakefield and Hoffman-Boston experience of basketball. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: Now, you said junior-senior year. He would have spent— NARRATOR: He graduated Wakefield in ’66, the year after me. And so, he was—yeah, I was in the first class. He was in the second. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned you like dance. Were there any particular good dancers from the school that you really enjoyed? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. Oh, brother. Lots of them. INTERVIEWER: I mean individuals. NARRATOR: Oh, I used to dance with—isn’t that funny? Trying to place names. Oh, my goodness. I’m thinking about [00:29:01]—oh, wow. There were two brothers. I think they were the Kinney brothers that I danced with a lot. Wow. Do you know I have never even thought that much about dance partners? But I used to—I used to do it an awful lot. Wow. I don’t know. I’d have to—you know what? I’d have to get a yearbook. I’d have to get a yearbook and really think back on that. INTERVIEWER: Well, maybe we should— NARRATOR: That would be a nice—you know—thing to do. INTERVIEWER: Maybe we should do that for the part two for this interview. NARRATOR: Okay. That’ll be good. INTERVIEWER: Talking about individuals—because sometimes we remember the experience, but there are some people that went along with you— NARRATOR: Along with it. Absolutely. INTERVIEWER: —and since you— NARRATOR: Absolutely. Wow. Because [00:30:00] I did that. I mean, we would even—how do you say when you tap someone’s shoulder and break in on them? You know. I was even into the breaking in, so I had a ball. INTERVIEWER: You would do that? NARRATOR: Well, not saying that I would do it. Usually it would be the guys doing it. But I hadn’t really even thought about that in a long time. INTERVIEWER: And generally speaking, the girls danced with guys, in this particular time, unless there weren’t enough guys to go along. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: But I don’t know what happened in formal— NARRATOR: We weren’t separate. We were hand dancing. You know what I mean? There was an actual connection as opposed to nowadays. It’s more—everybody’s just alone by themselves, so to speak, movement. INTERVIEWER: But in terms of just the dancing, even if it were at the school, if it was during a regular dance [00:31:00] or an affair—some sort of party or whatever—did girls dance with girls if there weren’t enough guys around? NARRATOR: I don’t know. I just don’t remember it a lot. But I’m sure that possibly could have been. Like today, I think a lot more about line dancing, and we used to do something similar, but I don’t remember it having as prominent a place as line dancing seems to have these days. But yeah, I do remember having a line on both sides and then going down the middle. I forget what that was called, but— INTERVIEWER: It seems like one was called, perhaps, the Madison. NARRATOR: The Madison. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And the stroll. NARRATOR: Yes, the stroll. Yes. So, we did a variety of things, but hand dancing stands out as one of my favorites. And the bop. [00:32:01] INTERVIEWER: And the bop. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). And working the floor, so to speak. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember the TV shows that emphasized the dancing? NARRATOR: American Bandstand or something. INTERVIEWER: And that was Dick Clark. NARRATOR: Yeah, Dick Clark. Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: And then the local show was Milt Grant. Do you—? NARRATOR: Oh, okay. I didn’t remember that name. INTERVIEWER: And that there were only certain days that we appeared on those shows. NARRATOR: Oh, interesting. INTERVIEWER: Okay. At any rate, I don’t know if I remember any dance in the gymnasium at the school per se. You’re saying much of this happened at the rec center. NARRATOR: In the rec center. I remember particularly going to the rec center and going to people’s homes, and I used to—let’s see. When did I get—I guess I got [00:33:00] a car in 1965, actually. But I used to take a group of my friends—my girlfriends—and go to Washington for parties. That's how I learned my way around Washington. So, we used to go to parties, dances, house parties. INTERVIEWER: Okay. But 1965, you were already graduated. NARRATOR: I was already at Wakefield. INTERVIEWER: So, that’s beyond— NARRATOR: Beyond, yes. I was done. INTERVIEWER: You were quote/unquote grown. NARRATOR: After I was done. Yeah, I was done. INTERVIEWER: What other kinds of things—what did Hoffman-Boston mean to you in terms of your career and your life path? NARRATOR: Oh, well, you know what? At this point, it means quite a lot because I find in working with [00:34:00] adult education literacy, there was really about—what, like a 36 percent functionally illiterate rate in the district, and part of what I find myself doing in my class is trying to bring back as much as I can of the values I had from HB, in a sense, that seem to be missing. And in working with literacy, it’s—you know. I can’t overstate the importance of it. And just trying to—wow—share the benefit, I think, I got from having a strong foundation [00:35:01] and trying to incorporate that in what I impart to the adults that I work with that didn’t have that experience and, unfortunately, may not have had a good school experience period to have missed reading, as fundamental as that is. So, I find myself, in a sense, reaching back a lot to what I brought from that foundation and trying to incorporate it as much as I can on a daily basis. I only teach three days—Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday—but I love what I do, and I’m very grateful for that. It doesn’t feel like work to me. It feels a lot more like a mission. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well, going back [00:36:00] to your days at Hoffman-Boston, when it became apparent that the schools were going to be integrated in the fall of ’64, how did you feel about leaving Hoffman-Boston? Can you describe that? NARRATOR: Probably a little reluctant and a little bit—I probably had mixed emotions as far as really wanting to leave HB, particularly since it was approaching my time to graduate, and I kind of—I think I was a lot more attached to wanting to graduate at HB. INTERVIEWER: And you wanted to graduate— NARRATOR: But I knew that we would be graduating from Wakefield, that I knew nothing about really. INTERVIEWER: In making the transition, [00:37:00] was that an easy one for you? NARRATOR: I guess I just adjusted to it. I don’t really think—as I think back, I’m not sure that it was really that easy, but I managed to try to make the adjustment. INTERVIEWER: Did you get any of the teachers that you had at Hoffman-Boston at Wakefield at all? NARRATOR: At least I had Griffin. INTERVIEWER: Oh, so Mrs. Griffin was there when you were in the twelfth grade. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). When I went over—yeah—to Wakefield. And when I actually—because I was in that program and was actually able to take the civil service exam in school, I was able to start working at Federal Trade Commission right away, the next Tuesday after the graduation, actually. So, yeah, my shorthand allowed me to go in [00:38:00] at a different grade level than had I only taken the typing. INTERVIEWER: And I think as I remember, minimally, you could get for that clerk type—was it a clerk type—a clerk-stenographer test? Was it two or—grade two and three and four? NARRATOR: Right. But I think I was able to get a three instead of the two because of having the stenography. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And that’s based on what really you learned at Hoffman-Boston. NARRATOR: Really. INTERVIEWER: And you still had Mrs. Griffin. NARRATOR: Right. And I had to carry over. Yeah. So, I think that’s why she really stands out to me, now that you mention it, because that was a carryover and teacher from HB. INTERVIEWER: You had that—were you able to discuss with her any issues when you were at Wakefield, by any chance? NARRATOR: I didn’t really recall having any serious issues [00:39: 1] that—well, either I blocked them out maybe, because I don’t really remember any real problems. But I do remember her presence and her—I kind of try to follow her model, in a sense, in working with some students who are not really putting forth all they could be. Or maybe they’re not ready yet to that point that they are putting in the study time so that they can retain the information. INTERVIEWER: You mean then or now? Is that—? NARRATOR: Well, as I’m working with adults now, I think some of what I observed in her manner I’m trying to apply [00:39:59]. I do—I kind of see some of what I got from her in some of the things that I do in interacting. INTERVIEWER: Was there any difference in the classroom at Wakefield as opposed to Hoffman-Boston in Mrs. Griffin’s case? NARRATOR: No. I felt pretty much—I was at home in that class from HB to Wakefield, because that part was consistent. INTERVIEWER: Did she teach—was there any resistance or any factor or any issues brought up, since she was a black teacher in the white school? NARRATOR: Not that I knew of exactly. There may have been, but I—no, not that I knew of. INTERVIEWER: And you still took typing or the shorthand from her in that—what class did you have? NARRATOR: Shorthand is what I took from Griffin. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So, you had the time to test, so there’s no—[00:41:00] you have to remember the forms or whatever, and that’s the basic kind of thing. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. Every night, I had to write and practice every night, and that’s how, I think, it has stuck with me all these years, actually, because I’m always running into people that will say, “Oh, what is that? What is that?” [laughs] But it’s coming—it’s so handy in different classes that I’ve taken, like in college. It was just invaluable, you might say. And to this very day, I listen to the radio a lot, and I attend a lot of lectures, because I’m still in an academic environment, and I’m just always taking notes in shorthand. Always. And notebook [00:42:00] after notebook after notebook. I don’t even bother to transcribe them. I just keep adding on the notes because it’s convenient for me. And then, when I want to go back to them, they’re still in shorthand. INTERVIEWER: Was there anything else about going to Wakefield that impressed you or—at all? Or any other impression that you remember? NARRATOR: About going to Wakefield? INTERVIEWER: Do you think Wakefield was a better school than Hoffman-Boston? NARRATOR: You know what? When it comes to assessing whether something is better, more and more I’m finding that we probably walked away from what was better in lots of ways, because we also— [00:43:00] in walking away, we lost the benefit of our own in many instances and lost ourselves, in some way of speaking, if you really look at it. And I think that’s true in a lot of institutions, because we have fewer banks, we have fewer hospitals, we have fewer everything; and so, to me, no, I don’t look at it as better, because all of my strong foundation I really place back at HB, actually. INTERVIEWER: Well, let me see if I can— NARRATOR: Of course, I wasn’t there long, you know. I went in in ’64 and then graduated, you see, so that’s the extent of it. [00:44:00] INTERVIEWER: Wakefield would have given you a larger situation, since you’re going from a smaller school, which was Hoffman-Boston, to the larger school—a class of about maybe sixty people to a class of over eight hundred people. And I’ve heard you say already that from going from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield you lose something. You lose a sense of community. Is that a paraphrase? Does that paraphrase your feelings about it? NARRATOR: Yeah. Absolutely. INTERVIEWER: And that it was not necessarily—it was better that walking away from Hoffman-Boston had more benefits than being in the Wakefield situation per se, and losing community was more important in terms of promoting [00:45:01] an atmosphere that was dedicated to the achievement of the students themselves. Would you not agree? NARRATOR: Oh, I would agree with that, because I think that’s also—that still holds as I made a decision to go to HBCU when I finally finished. I finished at Howard, but I had gone briefly—because I worked, actually. I kind of used that avenue in pursuing my college. I worked at universities and was able to get tuition. But I really—I loved being at Howard. I went to GW. I went to AU. I went to Northern Virginia Community College. I went—I think that’s probably sizes—yeah, I think that— INTERVIEWER: So, you would rather be at Hoffman-Boston and [00:46:00] Howard—those kinds of institutions—where you have a different— NARRATOR: A lot more support, a lot more of who I am that’s—it was more conducive to learning for me, I guess, you might say, because—and it’s not that I didn’t—because actually, at Howard, I really came in contact with—I think we had like about—representatives of about a hundred countries, so it’s not that it was totally just a few—that it was only African Americans per se. But it extended beyond that, and I felt very good about the education that I was getting, just the way that I felt about HB. [00:47:00] So, that’s how it has panned out for me. INTERVIEWER: So, do you think that being in an institution that is basically—where the diversity does not exist—that is, you don’t have—it’s more Caucasians in that institution—may not be conducive toward you feeling very comfortable there? Or what do you think is the wall? Or how do you—can you describe that? NARRATOR: Well, I guess—how can I really describe that? But probably given our history in this country, that probably does describe it. Racism is certainly still well and thriving; and so, I can’t [00:48:00]—I guess there’s—you know. That's the biggest reason. INTERVIEWER: And living in Arlington at that point, this is Virginia. It was Northern Virginia, more or less a little bit progressive. NARRATOR: Northern, yes. Yes. INTERVIEWER: There wasn’t—was there much interaction between the black and white communities, even here, prior to integration? NARRATOR: Maybe I didn’t have that much interaction then, until the Wakefield experience, actually. I don’t recall having a lot before that. Maybe prior to—like I was born on a military base, but even the brief time that I attended school there, I don’t have that [00:49:00] recall of that experience. And I suppose that’s kind of a different kind of community, in a sense, on a military base. But I just don’t recall having a lot of it. And then, when I gravitated toward Howard—and I’ve spent so much of my work time there as well—I’ve had a lot more experience in that arena. So, I just don’t—I really don’t have the personal interaction there. I spent about thirteen years, though, in the government, because that’s the way I began working. But once I came out [00:50:01] it’s interesting. I only really remember one—and I’ve been extremely blessed in employers, actually—individual supervisors when I say that-that I only had one incident where I really felt a racist undertone to it, and I definitely had to exit mode from that. I mean, that was just my defense mechanism, I suppose, but I’ve been in a whole other environment ever since, actually. So, it’s almost like I was always going back to HB, in a sense. Yeah, that‘s exactly the way I’m [00:51:01] reflecting on it now, as I thought about it. I probably was always trying to get back in that comfortable zone that I do find most conducive for my learning, because I am still learning a lot, and this is where I learn best. INTERVIEWER: So, you would sum it up that Hoffman-Boston provided the foundation for you to—and the environment and to seek that kind of environment to learn in, and that would be something you would pass on to your grandchildren. NARRATOR: Yes. Oh, that’s interesting that you should even mention that, because I did—my daughter—I only have one. I put her in every possible educational setting, I do believe. She went to a Catholic school. She went to [00:52:01] a school in Arlington. She went to—let’s see—Virginia in Fairfax and in Alexandria. And then, in D.C., I found an Afrocentric school, and what is interesting is once she went to that school, it went up to a certain grade—eighth, I think it was—and then she had to go to a—she had to go back to Wakefield, I think it was. Okay. So, she had to go to Wakefield, and then, she now has four children, and they’ve all gone to Afrocentric [Editor’s note: a private school]. Never have—has she put them in any of her other experiences. So, I think that’s interesting, in a sense, because it’s not that I didn’t [00:53:01] try out several modes. I did. INTERVIEWER: Okay. We shall conclude this interview at this moment. NARRATOR: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Perhaps for a second installment. Thank you very much, Carolyn, for sharing with me. NARRATOR: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. [00:53:18] [end of interview]   A African Americans 33 Afrocentric school 36 Alexandria 36 American Bandstand 23 apron 10 Arlington 2, 34, 36 AU 33 B banks 31 basketball games 17 boyfriend 18 bus 13, 14 business classes 4 C career 25 Carver Center 17 church 14 civil service exam 7, 27 Clark, Dick 23 classes 4, 6, 7, 10, 17, 30 clerk-stenographer test 27 college 4, 5, 19, 30, 33 community 3, 14, 15, 16, 32, 35 Crittendon¸ Harvey 18 culture 16 D dance 17, 19, 20, 22, 24 dancers 19 dances 17, 24 dancing 17, 22, 23 Diamond Jubilee 6, 8 diversity 33 Drew 2, 3 dropping out 13 Duke University 19 E education 10, 12, 25, 33 employers 35 English 10, 12 environment 2, 3, 30, 35 excellence 4, 6 F Fairfax 36 fashion 11, 15, 16 Federal Trade Commission 27 football 17, 18 foundation 12, 25, 31, 35 G Gant, Miss Mamie 13 Georgia Tech 19 government 7, 35 graduated 1, 5, 19, 24, 32 Grant, Milt 23 Green Valley 3 Gregg Shorthand 6, 8 Griffin, Gwendolyn 6 Griffin, Ms 4 Griffin, Mrs. 6, 10, 27, 28, 29 GW 33 gymnasium 24 H hand dancing 17, 22, 23 Haygood, Mr. 5 HB 2, 12, 15, 19, 25, 26, 28, 29, 31, 33, 35 HBCU 32 history 1, 34 Hoffman-Boston 1, 2, 3, 7, 11, 12, 18, 19, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 33, 35 home economics 10, 12 hospitals 31 house parties 24 Howard 5, 33, 35 husband 18 I integration 1, 34 interaction 34 issues 28, 29 J Johnson Hill 3 K keyboards 8 L learning 6, 8, 33, 35 life path 25 lifelong learning 6 line dancing 22 literacy 25 M Madison 22, 23 math 5, 9 military base 34 Motown 17 music 10, 17 N neighbors 3 Northern Virginia 7, 33, 34 Northern Virginia Community College 7, 33 P parents 16 parties 24 past 15 Peters, Cortez 8 players 18 principal 11 R Racism 34 reading 25 rec center 17, 24 Richardson, Mr. 11 Robinson, Mrs. 11 S schools 1, 26 segregated 4 shorthand 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 27, 30 shorthand class 5 social activities 17 sports program 18 stenography 28 stroll 23 students 2, 15, 28, 32 sub-grade education 12 support 33 T teacher 4, 6, 10, 28, 29 teachers 14, 15, 16, 27 transition 26 tuition 33 TV shows 23 typewriters 7, 8 typing 7, 27, 30 typist 8 V values 25 vice principal 11 Vietnam 19 vocational area 12 void 15 W Wakefield 1, 19, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 36 Washington 19, 24 Washington Post 19 Y yearbook 20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/8238a0731707fc87c8b70fcec747e53d.mp3 00e77442570534cd9fe4efc5cf788df7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Memories of Teachers at Hoffman-Boston Clip - Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016, regarding her memories of teachers and staff members of Hoffman-Boston. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423_Memories of Teachers Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/d62913cb7d5de5e46c532bde2b0593c8.pdf fefae90b288e139c2ef3fa057c1fbc9f PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Hoffman-Boston School” NARRATOR: Carolyn Crittendon INTERVIEWER: Brenda Brittain DATE: April 23, 2016 Memories of Teachers Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:04:30] What was—what about your classes and all? At this point in time, you would have been in the seventh grade. It seems as if there would have been some different classes and choices you would have to make transitioning from elementary school. Can you go back to that time? NARRATOR: Only—let’s see. INTERVIEWER: What impressions can you gather? NARRATOR: Well, actually, I think I came across probably my favorite teacher, once I made a [00:05:01] switch from my college prep classes, pretty much, I think, and switched to the business classes. And that’s when I came in contact with Ms. Griffin, that I really appreciate her structure and direction and her insisting on excellence and insisting that you practiced every day. And she just had a very loving but yet insisting on your excellence. And yet, it wasn’t a [00:06:01] harsh type of approach that made you resent it. It was like you could really see how she was pushing you to be the best and being—doing your best was important. And she instilled that upon us, and in my shorthand class is where I remember her. And even to this day, I’ve still held on to that skill, and many, many, many years I’ve applied it. And so, I guess that’s one of the reasons that she stands out to me. [00:06:45] INTERVIEWER: [00:14:21] During your — while you attended Hoffman-Boston, did you ever come in contact with Mr. Richardson in any form or fashion? Or perhaps the vice principal, Mrs. Robinson. NARRATOR: Well, not from being sent to the office or anything. Just in passing. INTERVIEWER: Just in passing? NARRATOR: You know, just in passing. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was there anything about his leadership or example that you remember? NARRATOR: Well, actually, in reflecting back, he certainly [00:15:00] always presented a very professional persona in the time that I recall his being the principal. And I really did sense that he certainly took his position very seriously and that he was there to help mold us the best that we could be. I did get that from him. And years later, as we had reunions, that still came across as—that definitely was part of his mission. INTERVIEWER: When you attended Hoffman-Boston, did you have any inkling or any feeling whatsoever that you were [00:15:59] gaining an under—receiving a sub-standard education? NARRATOR: No. Unh-uh (negative). Absolutely not. And in hindsight, I definitely don’t think it was sub anything. I definitely feel that my foundation is stronger as I now can see my daughter—my daughter’s education is completely after, of course, post-segregation, and some of that foundation that I got in elementary and HB is—to me, I definitely see it as being stronger, actually. [00:16:51.9] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Memories of Teachers at Hoffman-Boston Clip - Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016, regarding her memories of teachers and staff members of Hoffman-Boston. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcritp Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423_Memories of Teachers Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/bcbf4c4f37a37b05af214543e31a4383.mp3 4d8bcca339403532927251b648b7a211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transitioning from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield Clip - Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016, regarding her memories of transitioning from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield for her final year of school. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423_Transitioning from HB to Wakefield Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/5486ea55ccfe66f8913218e5735a73d4.pdf 6131e41bd399a5c226ff6cfe4823adce PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Hoffman-Boston School” NARRATOR: Carolyn Crittendon INTERVIEWER: Brenda Brittain DATE: April 23, 2016 Transitioning from HB to Wakefield Clip INTERVIEWER: [00:35:59] Okay. Well, going back [00:36:00] to your days at Hoffman-Boston, when it became apparent that the schools were going to be integrated in the fall of ’64, how did you feel about leaving Hoffman-Boston? Can you describe that? NARRATOR: Probably a little reluctant and a little bit—I probably had mixed emotions as far as really wanting to leave HB, particularly since it was approaching my time to graduate, and I kind of—I think I was a lot more attached to wanting to graduate at HB. [00:36:50] INTERVIEWER: [00:42:31] Do you think Wakefield was a better school than Hoffman-Boston? NARRATOR: You know what? When it comes to assessing whether something is better, more and more I’m finding that we probably walked away from what was better in lots of ways, because we also— [00:43:00] in walking away, we lost the benefit of our own in many instances and lost ourselves, in some way of speaking, if you really look at it. And I think that’s true in a lot of institutions, because we have fewer banks, we have fewer hospitals, we have fewer everything; and so, to me, no, I don’t look at it as better, because all of my strong foundation I really place back at HB, actually. INTERVIEWER: Well, let me see if I can— NARRATOR: Of course, I wasn’t there long, you know. I went in in ’64 and then graduated, you see, so that’s the extent of it. [00:44:00] INTERVIEWER: Wakefield would have given you a larger situation, since you’re going from a smaller school, which was Hoffman-Boston, to the larger school—a class of about maybe sixty people to a class of over eight hundred people. And I’ve heard you say already that from going from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield you lose something. You lose a sense of community. Is that a paraphrase? Does that paraphrase your feelings about it? NARRATOR: Yeah. Absolutely. INTERVIEWER: And that it was not necessarily—it was better that walking away from Hoffman-Boston had more benefits than being in the Wakefield situation per se, and losing community was more important in terms of promoting [00:45:01] an atmosphere that was dedicated to the achievement of the students themselves. Would you not agree? NARRATOR: Oh, I would agree with that, because I think that’s also—that still holds as I made a decision to go to HBCU when I finally finished. I finished at Howard, but I had gone briefly—because I worked, actually. I kind of used that avenue in pursuing my college. I worked at universities and was able to get tuition. But I really—I loved being at Howard. I went to GW. I went to AU. I went to Northern Virginia Community College. I went—I think that’s probably sizes—yeah, I think that— INTERVIEWER: So, you would rather be at Hoffman-Boston and [00:46:00] Howard—those kinds of institutions—where you have a different— NARRATOR: A lot more support, a lot more of who I am that’s—it was more conducive to learning for me, I guess, you might say, because—and it’s not that I didn’t—because actually, at Howard, I really came in contact with—I think we had like about—representatives of about a hundred countries, so it’s not that it was totally just a few—that it was only African Americans per se. But it extended beyond that, and I felt very good about the education that I was getting, just the way that I felt about HB. [00:47:00] So, that’s how it has panned out for me. [00:46:11] INTERVIEWER: [00:48:17.8] There wasn’t—was there much interaction between the black and white communities, even here, prior to integration? NARRATOR: Maybe I didn’t have that much interaction then, until the Wakefield experience, actually. I don’t recall having a lot before that. Maybe prior to—like I was born on a military base, but even the brief time that I attended school there, I don’t have that [00:49:00] recall of that experience. And I suppose that’s kind of a different kind of community, in a sense, on a military base. But I just don’t recall having a lot of it. And then, when I gravitated toward Howard—and I’ve spent so much of my work time there as well—I’ve had a lot more experience in that arena. So, I just don’t—I really don’t have the personal interaction there. I spent about thirteen years, though, in the government, because that’s the way I began working. But once I came out [00:50:01] it’s interesting. I only really remember one—and I’ve been extremely blessed in employers, actually—individual supervisors when I say that-that I only had one incident where I really felt a racist undertone to it, and I definitely had to exit mode from that. I mean, that was just my defense mechanism, I suppose, but I’ve been in a whole other environment ever since, actually. So, it’s almost like I was always going back to HB, in a sense. Yeah, that‘s exactly the way I’m [00:51:01] reflecting on it now, as I thought about it. I probably was always trying to get back in that comfortable zone that I do find most conducive for my learning, because I am still learning a lot, and this is where I learn best. [00:51:24] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transitioning from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield Clip - Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Carolyn Crittendon on April 23, 2016, regarding her memories of transitioning from Hoffman-Boston to Wakefield for her final year of school. Interviewer is Brenda Brittain. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423_Transitioning from HB to Wakefield Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Brenda Brittain Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carolyn Crittendon Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:53:18 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 94kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Carolyn Crittendon, April 23, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Hoffman-Boston Description An account of the resource Carolyn Crittendon attended Hoffman-Boston Junior Senior High School until her senior year in 1964, when the school closed. Ms. Crittendon finished her high school education at the newly desegregated Wakefield High School. This interview was conducted by Brenda Brittain, a fellow classmate, on April 23, 2016. Her interview is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from her oral history, regarding her memories of the quality of education she received at Hoffman-Boston and the differences between her community school and the larger Wakefield High School. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carolyn Crittendon Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda Brittain Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context crittendonc20160423 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/5766d642678a9074b4ecfacbd51cfb9c.mp3 6df55a8d89f29f54048f6cc78e2ed6c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Campbell, September 3, 1984, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Elizabeth Campbell on September 3, 1984. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elizabeth Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3-Sep-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbellep19840903.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/80bd484a7f1c85350af5e53f3925c69f.pdf f6916a6f96790a999a00112b5a07af36 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project INTERVIEWER: Edmund Campbell NARRATOR: Elizabeth Campbell DATE: September 3, 1984 INTERVIEWER: This is Edmund Campbell of Arlington County Library Oral History Project. We are fortunate today to have a chance to interview Elizabeth Campbell, a longtime resident of Arlington County and, if I may say so, a distinguished one even though she happens to be my wife. Elizabeth, when did you first come to Arlington? NARRATOR: I came to Arlington in June of 1936, and I had married you. You took me away from Mary Baldwin College where I had been Dean for seven wonderful years. INTERVIEWER: Where is Mary Baldwin College? NARRATOR: In Staunton, Virginia. When I came with you to 2224 N. 24th Street, Cherrydale, Virginia, I found two very wonderful children, Ed, Jr., aged 8 years, and Virginia, aged 3. INTERVIEWER: They were children of mine by a previous marriage, my first wife having died, and they became your children completely as well as mine. As a matter of fact, you legally adopted them. NARRATOR: I was very grateful to have them. 2224 North 24th Street in Cherrydale was really out in the country, and I had spent most of my life in educational institutions or at home, so it was a different kind of life for me. INTERVIEWER: You say it was out in the country. It was north of Lee Highway about two blocks from the house occupied now occupied by Joseph Fisher, who was Congressman for many years from the Tenth District. It had an entrance to Lee Highway by crossing a special bridge over what is now Spout Run. Isn't that right? NARRATOR: Yes, but it was a long way, and it was a narrow road, and there were very few neighbors in that area. Our water for the house came from a well with a pump in it which frequently gave out, and we had to call the landlord he lived in Maryland to come and repair the pump. It was a particularly beautiful place the next spring when the dogwood bloomed, and the first party that we ever gave in Arlington was a dogwood festival on May 1, l937. We moved from this house in l938 to 2912 North Glebe Road, and both Mother Campbell, who lived with us and I were very grateful for the fact that we were on the main road where the bus ran infrequently, but still it ran. INTERVIEWER: Describe that house a little because it is no longer here. NARRATOR: Well, it was a very large house. It had been built in 1912 by Admiral Rixey for his wife's niece. She brought up her children in that house, and they walked across the street to the big house, now occupied by Marymount College, but at that time called "Rixey Mansion." INTERVIEWER: I believe there were steps on the other side of Glebe Road leading up to the top of the embankment? NARRATOR: Yes. Admiral Rixey had built steps to take the children across when they went to visit their aunt. But I want to go back to 2244 N. 24th Street for a minute because my first interest in the activities of Arlington County had to do with the fact that we were trying to find a school for Ed, Jr., an elementary school and hopefully, find a kindergarten for Virginia. When I investigated I was told that unless 60 chldren could be found to go to Woodmont School, a two room elementary school on the other end of 24th Street from the end that went up to Lee Highway, that Ed, Jr., would have to go with the other children who lived around in that area to Cherrydale School up on Lee Highway, with no bus transportation until you got to Lee Highway and then just the regular bus that took you into town. So I joined with some of the other parents in the neighborhood to canvass the people who lived in the area, and I'll always be grateful that I had to do this because otherwise I'm not sure I would have made an effort to meet the people who lived far back in the woods in those areas. We got the 60 children, and the two room school opened in September. The children were very well taught six grades in two rooms, but I was satisfied with what Ed, Jr. learned. Now for Virginia, there was nothing. We finally found a kind of play school up in Cherrydale where we took her three days a week and where she at least got to meet some other children her age. But that was all that happened in that school. They met and entertained themselves and one another under the wings of the lady who owned the place but who had no experience whatsoever in teaching children. INTERVIEWER: You spoke of Cherrydale, living in Cherrydale. I believe our wedding announcements bore the name of Cherrydale, Virginia, did they not? NARRATOR: Yes, and I thought the name was so much prettier than Arlington, and I still feel that North 24th Street at that time, with the trees and the large estate which was across the street from us was just one of the really beautiful places, but it was not a good place from which to operate a family. There were no grocery stores of any kind nearer than Lee Highway. We had one car which, when I first married, I didn't enjoy driving, and it was too far and it was too rough for us to walk. So when we moved up to North Glebe Road, Mother Campbell, who lived with us, said, "Thank God I'm out of the woods!" INTERVIEWER: Cherrydale had its own Post Office when we were married, did it not? NARRATOR: Yes, that's right, and we took our mail to the Cherrydale Post Office. It was all very different from any place where I had ever lived before, and I shall always be grateful to you, Ed, that you saw to it that I could go into Washington one day a week. I rode in with you, spent the day at the AAUW Clubhouse on I Street… INTERVIEWER: I Street, where was that located? NARRATOR: I Street in Washington, D.C. INTERVIEWER: About 17th Street? NARRATOR: 17th and I a beautiful old house, and the AAUW was really my great retreat. I learned to know the people who were there in the offices and the people who came to the various activities and through the AAUW I made contacts that have stayed with me the rest of my life. INTERVIEWER: Well, so we moved up to 2912 Glebe Road. What happened then, shall I say, of interest historically to Arlington? NARRATOR: We were able to send our children to John Marshall School which was right on Glebe Road, and they could walk there to School, and we became involved in the activities of the School, the PTA and the other activities. In 1941 our twin sons were born, and this, of course, added another dimension to our family. At that time the War was going on, and we had all of the problems that came with that food stamps, standing in line for groceries, and no place for our children to play because Glebe Road was a two lane road, and there were no sidewalks. They could get out on our big front porch in their strollers, but there was no other place where the strollers could go. I and a number of other women who stood in line at the grocery store were very conscious of the need for some kind of a nursery school or a place for our children. And so in the food lines at the grocery store was born the idea of having a play school or a nursery school. Out of that and our activities in the neighborhood came the Rock Spring Neighborhood House Nursery School. INTERVIEWER: Rock Spring Cooperative Nursery School, it was called? NARRATOR: It had to be cooperative because we didn't have any money, and the only thing that we had was children and time. We put those together and we had a neighbor, Virginia Stitzenberger, who had two little girls. The Stitzenberger's house is located at the back of Old Dominion Drive, and our lot went back to Old Dominion Drive, so our children could play in the woods that separated us, and that's the way we got acquainted. INTERVIEWER: Now when you started the Rock Spring Nursery School, how did you arrange to handle the children each day? NARRATOR: We started with 15 children, and the mothers took turnabout driving, they took turnabout working. The parents came the fathers came at night and helped to build some equipment. We used packing boxes. We took turnabout providing the juice and the crackers in the middle of the day. We had a finally a part time teacher and then we found a fulltime nursery school teacher. But all of us participated. It was a great experience. INTERVIEWER: The Rock Spring Nursery School is still in existence, is it not? NARRATOR: Yes, for more than 40 years. INTERVIEWER: And hasn't it become something of a model for cooperative nursery schools in a good part of the country? NARRATOR: I think so. It was one of the very early ones in Virginia. I think it was the earliest. I am sure it was the first one in Northern Virginia and the other remarkable thing about it was that the parents of that nursery school were the parents who made up the very core of the Better School Movement later on in Arlington. We knew one another, and we had worked together, and I feel that the nursery school parents were the ones who really made it possible for Arlington to work to have better schools. INTERVIEWER: You did get a professional, did you not, a professional teacher with whom the parents cooperated on a rotating basis? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. The number of children grew so that when we had 30 children we had a fulltime nursery school teacher, and all of us who were interested in the school tried to learn more about how to run it, and our teacher was very good in helping us to learn some of the techniques of nursery school. I had never taught little children before, and I needed to learn. INTERVIEWER: You spoke a moment ago about the School Movement in Arlington, and we'll come to that in a minute I'm sure you mean the Movement for better schools. NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: …and you did, however, get involved in certain other civic activities before you got into the School Movement, didn't you? NARRATOR: Well, I kept working with the PTA's, and, of course, when I first came… INTERVIEWER: I'm thinking of the Visiting Nurse Association and the Mental Health Association? NARRATOR: Yes. Well, I became interested in the Visiting Nurse Association and was asked to join and be on that Board, and I found that my first real civic activity in Arlington was very worthwhile. It was pioneering because this was a very early group of people who became interested in the necessity for having visiting nurses. Then my other activity, which grew out of that, was the formation of the Mental Hygiene Clinic. Dr. Ralph Beachley was the head of the Health Department for Arlington County. He saw the great need for a Mental Hygiene Clinic and asked me if I would be on the Board, and then I became the Chairman of the Board. We got the organization together, and the State Board of Mental Hygiene was very cooperative with us, but our great problem was that we couldn't pay enough to get a psychiatrist to come over from the District of Columbia. The salaries of the professionals at the state level were so much smaller than those that were paid by the District of Columbia that we had to ask Arlington County to add to these salaries. This they did, and then we were able to start the clinic. It was a very, very interesting experience. INTERVIEWER: In the early forties I was involved in politics on the Arlington County Board, was I not? NARRATOR: Yes, you were. This was a political environment, entirely new to me. INTERVIEWER: You became involved in the new school movement. Elsewhere in these Oral History Interviews, we have had stories of the formation of the Citizen's Committee for School Improvement. You recall that, of course? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. I was a part of that, and of course, that was the group that really led to the fact that you didn't win the election. Isn't that right, for a third term on the County Board? INTERVIEWER: It may have had something to do with it, but that's off this particular subject you are the interviewee here today… NARRATOR: I know. Another thing that happened in Arlington that I was a part of was collecting food to send overseas to the Russians during the war. Louise Cox and I… INTERVIEWER: Louise Cox? NARRATOR: Yes, Louise Cox, the wife of the Counsel for the Secretary of the Treasury was a next door neighbor. They had two sons who were a little older than our twins. Louise and I were responsible for the big campaign to get food to send over to Russia. We organized it, and I spent many hours driving around the County to look at the food bins that had been placed outside the grocery stores. Customers were asked to put an extra can of food in when they shopped. Then all of that food had to be collected by the Red Cross and brought to a central place. This central place was the old garage in the back of our house. The Red Cross collected from the bins and brought it all up to this old garage and there the food was supposed to be sorted so that it could be taken in big crates to the place from which it was to be shipped out. INTERVIEWER: Do you know what year that probably was? NARRATOR: I think it was forty four. Our twins, Don and Ben, were old enough and knew enough to be able to sort the tomatoes from the beans by looking at the cans. Mother Campbell, the twins, and I together with Boy and Girl Scouts, spent many hours down in that garage sorting the food waiting for the pickup. There were two collections. One was a collection of relief kits to be sent to Russia. A kit filled by the President's family was the first kit to be sent. INTERVIEWER: What year was that? NARRATOR: That was in 1945. INTERVIEWER: Not 1944? NARRATOR: No, I think it was 1945, and I was the Chairman of that particular relief kit program. We gave very specific instructions about how these kits should be filled, and there was great participation throughout the County. Then in 1946 the following letter called for more food to be sent. I shall read just two sentences from a May 6, 1946 letter which was sent to the Presidents of twenty nine organizations in Arlington County. "Dear President: While the entire country has been awakened by press and radio to the dire needs of millions of starving people throughout Europe and Asia, no organizational plan of what we can do as individuals has been publicized. A National Emergency Committee for Food Collection in behalf of UNRA has been appointed." INTERVIEWER: UNRA? (United Nations Relief Association). NARRATOR: "and is in the process of organization. Accordingly, the Arlington County Emergency Food Collection has gone forward with its plans for an intensive campaign beginning Saturday, May 11 and ending Saturday, May 18." I was appointed Cochairman with Mrs. Hoddes, who was asked by the National Committee to serve as Chairman in Arlington County. Mrs. Irving Hoddes. She was asked by the National Committee to serve as Chairman in Arlington County, and I was asked by the Arlington Council of Church Women to organize a County collection under sponsorship of the Council. The two of us served together, and we got a great deal of food collected and sent through the World Service Center at New Windsor, Maryland. That was really my introduction to work throughout the county of Arlington, and I learned to know the County pretty well by driving around to the various food collection centers. INTERVIEWER: I want to turn now to your involvement in school matters in Arlington because this is possibly your greatest single contribution to the Arlington scene. You did get involved early in the Citizens' Committee for School Improvement, did you? NARRATOR: Yes, I was a member of that, though not a very active member, as I recall it. Because I had had this experience of working throughout the County, I was often asked for my advice as to how to approach certain sections of the County, but I didn't do a lot of the leg work. That was done by other people. INTERVIEWER: Were you involved in the campaign to procure legislation for an elected school board in Arlington? NARRATOR: To a moderate extent, I had always been involved in education through the PTA leadership. I didn't really do anything on that campaign as such. INTERVIEWER: How did you get involved formally in the Better Schools Movement? NARRATOR: Well, I was asked to be a candidate to run for the elected school board, and I think I was asked after the two of us had received a group of Arlington citizens who said, "Which one of you will be a candidate for the School Board?" And you said, "I will not, but Elizabeth, I think you should because you have been active in school affairs." INTERVIEWER: And I had just finished my term on the County Board. NARRATOR: So then you were asked to be the Chairman of the School Board Nominating Convention. The Convention was held on a hot, August night, and I… INTERVIEWER: Where was it held? NARRATOR: It was held in the Ashton Heights Club House south of Pershing Drive on Fillmore Street. I remember that we got ready to go over there. We got in the car, and as we drove, you said, "Now, Elizabeth, you have worked very hard to get an elected School Board. There's no reason why with all of these good people as candidates you shouldn't get yourself nominated. And I said, "No, I'm not going to." But I got over there in that crowded room, and I was asked to make my little, one minute or two minute talk. I looked around at all of the people who had worked so hard to pass this legislation to give us the right to have an elected School Board. I was thrilled with a patriotic fervor that I had never felt before or since. I don't know what I said, but the result of what I said was that I was the one woman nominated to serve with four men as candidates for the Arlington Elected School Board. INTERVIEWER: The campaign that followed was a pretty arduous campaign, wasn't it? NARRATOR: It was a very arduous campaign, and I found that I was out speaking night after night after night. I think that was the time you began to feel so sorry for yourself that you went out and bought yourself some goldfish to watch and play with while I was away from the house. The goldfish didn't last very long because you found you were getting involved in the campaign too. I found you very helpful in giving me advice about what to say when I was telephoned by people who called me names, and I was told I was a Communist. I was told also that I should not be running for the School Board when I had children in private school. My answer to that was, "As soon as the Arlington schools are good enough, I will bring our children back," and that's what we did. INTERVIEWER: This election resulted in the election of the nominees including you and the entire slate? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Who were they? Campbell, Joy, McPherson, Stahl, and Tuthill. NARRATOR: We had a little jingle that we sang during the campaign that used all of those names, because our aim was to get the five of us elected and we did. INTERVIEWER: I believe you were elected by a rather overwhelming majority? NARRATOR: Right. I led the ticket. INTERVIEWER: And you had litigation following that to determine whether the election was constitutionally valid or not, and that was decided in favor of the elected School Board? NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: During the campaign did you regularly visit the different schools? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. We went to see all of the schools. Later we reenacted these visits for the cameramen who recorded the Arlington Campaign for the March of Time film which has become a part of the history of Arlington County and, really, of the nation, because Arlington led in the campaign for better schools throughout the country. Many things have happened since then. INTERVIEWER: When the new School Board was elected with these five people, did you find that they complemented each other in the service that they could render? NARRATOR: It was a very remarkable Board, I think. We went over to Washington to talk to members of the National Education Association and also to people in the Office of Education asking then how we should proceed in really setting up a good school system. They told us the things that needed to be done, but they said, "Now, you must not do it." We came back to Arlington, looked at one another and said, "Who will do it? We can't wait until we get a staff." INTERVIEWER: What about your Superintendent? NARRATOR: The Superintendent was the Superintendent who had been with Arlington for years, the very person who had been responsible for the kind of school system we were trying to get rid of. INTERVIEWER: Mr. Fletcher Kemp? NARRATOR: Right. Mr. Kemp was… INTERVIEWER: He was not a bad man, was he? NARRATOR: No. Mr. Kemp just didn't know what a good system was, and he resented the fact that we were trying to change what he had worked so hard to keep. Now as I look back, I can see what a real effort it must have been for him even to keep on as Superintendent as long as he did while we were really making over the school system. INTERVIEWER: That was about a year and a half, wasn't it? NARRATOR: About a year and a half, before we were able to get William Early as our first Superintendent. INTERVIEWER: You have told me of conversations that you had with Mr. Kemp. I'm interested in one of them. I think the hearers here will be interested in one of them with respect to the need for facilities for special education for handicapped children. NARRATOR: When I ran for the School Board, I had two special "campaign planks": One to provide public kindergartens and the other was to provide education for every child the handicapped and those who were specially bright. The handicapped were the ones about whom I talked to Mr. Kemp, and he said, "Well, Mrs. Campbell, we don't have any handicapped children." And I said, "Mr. Kemp, that's very strange because I've been inquiring around the country, and we should have a certain percentage of handicapped children in Arlington." He said, "Well, if we have any slow learners, they are seated in the back of the classrooms, and the teachers give them special attention." And I said, "Well, what about the physically handicapped?" And he said, "Oh, well, we have classes we have a very few of those we have a class, would you like to see it?" And I said, "Yes, I would." So I went with him to see the class. It was held in the home of the mother of a handicapped child, severely handicapped with cerebral palsy. They lived in Cherrydale. There was one room and in this room were 12 to 15 children, they were brought there each day by their parents, there was no school transportation for them at that time. All that this lady could do was keep them there. There could be no program because they were so severely handicapped, and their handicaps were very different. So I made up my mind that once I was elected and we had a new school system, there would be a program for special education. Arlington really was instrumental in starting the program of Special Education in Northern Virginia and stimulating what was being done in the state of Virginia and finally in getting the interest of the people at the national level. Miss Mary Switzer, Secretary of HEW helped us and the result of that was the special program in Arlington and the special building for which she helped Arlington get the money. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned the fact that you had a remarkable mix, shall I say, of members on the School Board with different talents. Can you describe them briefly and their particular service in your efforts to make over the schools? NARRATOR: We met constantly, and on Saturday mornings we often, using Mr. McPherson's station wagon and the plat book of the County, traveled around the County looking for available land on which to build the new schools which we knew we were going to need. Barnard Joy was a statistician without whose help the plans for the building of Arlington County schools could never have been made. That was, I think, his chief contribution. Glenn Stahl is, at the present time, considered, I suppose, the top personnel man in the country… INTERVIEWER: Certainly in government work… NARRATOR: …and at that time he helped us to plan for our system for paying our teachers, for grading the schools. Then there was Curtis Tuthill. He was a psychologist at George Washington University. "Tut", whenever the rest of us came up with some novel ideas, would question us about them and make us really talk and think as to whether we had come to the right conclusions on these matters. I think that my contribution was mostly in the area of curriculum because that was what I knew. The wonderful thing about it was that each one of us respected the other. INTERVIEWER: What about McPherson? NARRATOR: McPherson was invaluable because he knew the business of the County. He knew the businessmen, and he was very helpful in persuading the businessmen of Arlington that the schools would be helpful to them; that they could sell land; that Arlington could develop because it would have more to offer to the people new to the Metropolitan Area. Without him we couldn't have made the progress that we made as quickly as we made it. INTERVIEWER: He later served as Treasurer of Arlington County for a good many years, did he not? NARRATOR: Yes. We had, as I said, real respect for one another, and we worked together. Sometimes we would work late at night, and I always said to the men, "We don't do anything that's worth doing after midnight. When midnight comes, we quit." And we usually did, but often, we worked until midnight. INTERVIEWER: You were doing, I take it, a good deal of administrative work, or making administrative decisions that a School Board would not ordinarily have to make, isn't that true? NARRATOR: The Office of Education told us that this is the one thing we should never do, but we had to do it until we got a new Superintendent and were able to get some specialists to head up the various departments of the schools. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned you were going around looking for land. Did you have to develop a substantial building program and get bond issues? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. We had to get a very large building program through, and we had to pass bond issues. One of them failed because we included kindergartens. Two of them failed because we included swimming pools. It's hard to believe that now. INTERVIEWER: Yes, I remember you had difficulty with Stratford Junior High School because it had a little… NARRATOR: In the foyer it had a little kind of a fountain in one corner with a very small basin… INTERVIEWER: And the opponents called it an aquarium, didn't they, or was that… NARRATOR: Well, I don't remember what they called it, but they said we were building aquariums and fountains and all kinds of strange and unnecessary things. INTERVIEWER: But that bond issue did go through? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: You served on the School Board how long? NARRATOR: Three four year terms. INTERVIEWER: Had the Supreme Court rendered its opinion in the landmark case of Brown vs. The Board of Education which directed desegregation of all public schools while you were on the Board? NARRATOR: Yes, it had. I went off the Board at the end of '57. INTERVIEWER: Had the legislature adopted any or had the legislature appointed any commissions to study the issue of desegregation, the so called Gray Commission? NARRATOR: The Gray Commission had been established, and my second term expired after we had made plans as a Board to do what we though the State would let us do. INTERVIEWER: What was that? NARRATOR: That was to plan for gradual integration. INTERVIEWER: Was the School Board unanimous on that point? NARRATOR: The School Board was unanimous, and then we had election for what would have been my third term… INTERVIEWER: No, let's go a little more slowly here. Your second term expired. You did not run for a third term? NARRATOR: No, I did not, but we still had the right to elect a School Board. We felt there should be a woman on the Board, and we persuaded Barbara Riches to run. Barbara ran for the Board and was elected. A year after she was elected, she died very tragically, so that left a vacancy on the Board. Meanwhile… INTERVIEWER: You started to say, "Meanwhile…" something happened. Is it that the legislature had abolished the elected School Board? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And provided that vacancies be filled by the County Board? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: The County Board was at that time more conservative? NARRATOR: Yes, and they appointed Mrs. Lane to take Barbara's place. Mrs. Lane was very conservative, ultraconservative, and she looked for Communists in all the classrooms, went to the school libraries, took books off the shelves and read excerpts from them and asked that they be taken from the shelves and gave the teachers a very, very hard time. Now that was also during the time of Massive Resistance when… INTERVIEWER: Before we get to Massive Resistance, do you remember one episode with Mrs. Lane and her own son's grades… NARRATOR: Yes. She didn't like her son's grades, and so she had them changed. She said he had been graded unfairly. The other thing… INTERVIEWER: She just changed them? NARRATOR: She had them changed. As I remember, she went to the school office and asked that the grades be changed. The principal was afraid not to change them because she was a member of the School Board. But the other inexcusable thing she did, she looked through the plans for the school budget and said that the Music Department had included for a harp. She took this budget to one of the committees of the House of Representatives. INTERVIEWER: The committee held a hearing, did they not? NARRATOR: Yes, and I was called to testify. Nothing came of it because the harp was only included in a future "rich" list. Another extremely conservative appointee was the auto dealer Bill Peck. His chief interest was saving money and seeing to it that there was no sex education in the public schools of Arlington. INTERVIEWER: Weren't you interested in saving money? NARRATOR: I was not interested in saving money at the expense of quality or payment to the teachers. His way of saving money was to OK the salaries of as many first year teachers as possible because they got less than anybody else, and sometimes he would OK far too many inexperienced teachers in one of the schools. He and I never agreed on that point. INTERVIEWER: Your final four years on the School Board do you have any special factors you want to comment on? NARRATOR: Well, I just think that an elected School Board is more effective and more efficient than an appointed one because, in the first place, you feel much closer to the people. You learn to know the schools before you are elected, and you learn to know many of the people, and you have, if you're wise, made promises that you think you can fulfill. On the other hand, when you are appointed by the County Board, you can't help but feel that you have some kind of a special relationship with the people who appointed you, and you have to persuade them, if you can, that your budget and the things you want for the schools are right. INTERVIEWER: As you know, this is one of the few things that you and I have disagreed on in politics. I, personally, think the appointed School Board is a better way to handle the situation unless the elected School Board has fiscal responsibility. NARRATOR: Well, I would like to have fiscal responsibility, but I don't think that that's essential if you're going to have really fine people who are willing to run for office and to take what you have to take in an election. INTERVIEWER: I take it that you are proud of the progress that Arlington schools made from the late forties on to the present time, are you not? NARRATOR: Well, I'm proud of it because what it represents is the support of the people. The people have wanted good schools for Arlington, and they have been willing to pay for them. And also I think the Citizen's Committees which were a part of the first program of the elected School Board have been invaluable in keeping quality in the Arlington schools. INTERVIEWER: Well, Elizabeth, there are one or two other matters I want to talk briefly with you about. One of them concerns your activities with Church Women United. You have been quite active in that organization, have you not? NARRATOR: Yes, Church Women United in Arlington I think has been very important in the life of the County because it brought together women who were interested in how the individual in the County was treated. They had many social concerns, and these concerns really went across all of the denominations, and one of the things that they have done, of course, also was to set up the Prayer Room in the Arlington Hospital, in the old Hospital, and then another one in the new Hospital or the newer Hospital. I think that this has brought a great feeling of oneness among the women in the County who are related to the churches and who have these social concerns. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. The final major subject I want to talk about and get you to talk about briefly concerns the formation and early days particularly of the Greater Washington Educational Telecommunications Association which, in its early days, was almost exclusively an Arlington production. Tell us about that. NARRATOR: Well, I think because of the fact that I had been known throughout the Washington Metropolitan Area as a person interested in education, I was asked by the Board of the Greater Washington Educational Television Association, called "GWETA", of which the Arlington schools had been a member from the beginning. Bernard Joy had represented us on that group when I was a member of the Board and actually when I was Chairman of the Board… INTERVIEWER: Chairman of the? NARRATOR: of the School Board. So when they were looking around, for somebody to come and be the President, they hit upon me and asked me, and I accepted, knowing that the need of the schools for help in education was very great. INTERVIEWER: Actually this was in the very early days of WETA before it went on the air? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. This was in 1956 and 1957. INTERVIEWER: When did WETA go on the air? NARRATOR: We went on the air in sixty one. INTERVIEWER: Tell us the circumstances that preceded your going on the air, the raising of the necessary money and the getting of the necessary facilities. NARRATOR: The needs of the schools at that time were particularly great in the area of science in the elementary schools, and I knew that there were two other communities in the nation that were using television to serve their schools, and so when I said I would be President of the Greater Washington Educational Television Association, I said, "We want to begin by serving the schools." We were able to get the interest of twelve of the Superintendents of schools in the Washington metropolitan area to support a science program provided we could raise the money from foundations to get the programs on the air on a trial basis. We were able to do this, and for three years, we had "Time for Science", a half hour program received in the fifth and sixth grades in all the Washington Area schools including the District of Columbia. INTERVIEWER: This was broadcast from what station? NARRATOR: From Channel 5 in Washington, and we had our studio set up in what was then the Raleigh Hotel, now demolished. Through the use of that program the PTA's saw how important television could be to their schools, and it was the PTA's and the school superintendents who made it possible for WETA to finally go on the air because they provided the audience and they provided the operating funds. INTERVIEWER: How did you get the Superintendents involved in providing the operating funds? NARRATOR: I went to see them and they… INTERVIEWER: How many? NARRATOR: Seventeen at that time when we went on the air, it started with twelve… INTERVIEWER: You were able to see all seventeen? NARRATOR: Yes, I went to see seventeen, and they signed letters. INTERVIEWER: Throughout the entire metropolitan area? NARRATOR: Right, and they all signed notarized letters saying that when WETA went on the air in October, 1961, they would provide 50 cents per elementary school child enrolled. This we estimated to be $150,000. We had $25,000 from the five universities; they gave us checks for $5,000 each. INTERVIEWER: Did you go to see each of those, too? NARRATOR: Yes, I went to see each of the Presidents, so a total of $175,000 was guaranteed for operations. We had $75,000 from two local Foundations. With this we made a down payment to General Electric for our equipment. We started in Arlington County because having canvassed the Washington metropolitan area, the only tower that was available to us was a tower on 19th Road in Arlington which we were able to lease with the option to buy. You can't go on the air without a tower… INTERVIEWER: You since exercised that option to buy? NARRATOR: Yes, we exercised it as soon as we could and raised the money, $100,000, to buy that tower, but with the tower we had to have a place, and we wanted it to be nearby because it would be cheaper to carry the lines there. I knew that the Arlington Yorktown High School had a large shop area which we had been required to build because all Virginia high schools had to have a shop area. At that time there were no shop students in North Arlington. We were able to rent this space from the Arlington School Board, and that became our studio. We had no money or office, so if you remember, Ed, you said we could have the office in our house, and you put in an extra telephone. So the office was in our house at 2912 North Glebe Road, the studios were in the Yorktown School, and the tower was on 19th Road. That was the reason we started in Arlington. But our signal went out beyond Arlington and serviced these 17 school systems. INTERVIEWER: You are speaking now of Channel 26, are you not? NARRATOR: Channel 26. INTERVIEWER: And you got a license and went on the air in 1961? NARRATOR: That's right. We got a license and went on the air in 1961. INTERVIEWER: Tell us you have an interest in stories you've told me about the circumstances under which you finally got your license from the Federal Communications Commission. NARRATOR: We got our license from the Federal Communications Commission in May. We had our papers all ready, and the lawyer who had helped us to fill these out, and he served without pay, called me one Thursday afternoon, and said, "Mrs. Campbell, the papers are ready, and I'm going to take them in in the morning to the FCC," and I said, "Well, I'm sorry, but you can't do that, because I promised Mr. Minow who was the Chairman of the FCC and who was particularly interested in seeing that we got on the air because we were a UHF station serving the Washington Metropolitan Area and also because he was just interested in us personally. I said, "Mr. Minow says he wants me to bring the papers to him," and the lawyer said, "Well, Mrs. Campbell, this is very unusual. Ordinarily the lawyer who has prepared the papers takes them in to a clerk at the FCC, and this is just a little UHF channel." I said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I promised Mr. Minow, and I'm going to call him and go in with the papers. Shall I go alone or will you go with me?" And he said, "I will go with you." So I called Mr. Minow, and his secretary said, "Yes, Mrs. Campbell, he's been wondering when you were coming in with these, and he will see you on Monday morning." So the lawyer and I went in together on Monday morning Mr. Minow had a photographer there to take the picture of the two of us… INTERVIEWER: He was the Chairman? NARRATOR: He was the Chairman of the FCC. I handed him our papers, and he thank me. I departed, and he went out at noon and made his "vast wastelands" speech before the National Association of Broadcasters. The speech had already been planned and was to take place on that date, so it was just a coincidence that we brought our papers in at a time when he was telling the broadcasters that television was a vast wasteland and that the only hope for it would be in noncommercial television unless they changed their programming. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any especially interesting incidents that occurred while you were broadcasting from Yorktown High School? NARRATOR: Well, you see, all of our programs were live into the schools. We made the programs right there. We did a lot of production with two cameras and one tape machine that had been loaned to us by the Ford Foundation (they finally gave it to us) and so we wanted to have some special programs, particularly for the interest of the high school students because most of our programs were only for the elementary schools. We called and invited Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt to come out and do a program for us on careers, to inspire young women particularly to go out and have their own careers and also to serve their communities. The secretary said, "Well, Mrs. Roosevelt must have a place in which to rest when she comes out to the studio," and I said, "All right." I looked around. We were in very crowded quarters, and outside of the rooms that we used for studios, there was a broom closet, quite a large closet where they kept brooms and cleaning utensils. So we cleaned that out and put a chair in there and a table with a glass of water, and that's where Mrs. Roosevelt rested. Then after the program was over, she let some of the high school seniors come and talk to her. That was a great thrill for them and for all of us. Unfortunately, we didn't have the money or didn't know enough to save that tape, and so we have no record of Mrs. Roosevelt's being there. But I remember it very well, and it was one of the highlights of my experiences at Yorktown. INTERVIEWER: You were, shall I say "ousted" from Yorktown in a few years because they needed the space? NARRATOR: We were there three years, and we were told before the end of the third year that we would have to go, because they needed the space. INTERVIEWER: You went from there to… NARRATOR: Well, we went from there and camped at American University for one summer. During that time Howard University said that we could have their old gym which they were getting ready to abandon because they had built a new one. Dean Nelson of Howard University was a member of our Board. He persuaded the President and the faculty to make it available to us, they renovated it and made some very fine studios. They we, instead of paying rent to Howard, trained Howard students in television. We helped them let them work on the floor as engineers and as cameramen, and we also gave courses in their School of Communications. We did such a good job that they said, "We want to have our own studios, and you will have to get out." So we got out, and Mr. McCarter was fortunate enough… INTERVIEWER: McCarter? NARRATOR: Mr. William J. McCarter was then WETA's Manager and President, and we were able to move our own men did the moving from the studios of Howard University to a building at 3620 27th Street, South, in Arlington, previously occupied by a small commercial television production outfit. INTERVIEWER: You have a long term lease on that? NARRATOR: We have a long term lease, and we're still there. They are very excellent studios. We have redone the whole building. It now has MacNeil Lehrer and our crew, our cameramen and all of our technical staff. INTERVIEWER: You also more recently acquired additional property in Arlington, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, on Four Mile Run just one block up from the studios, we now have an entire block and a building which occupies that block. It was an old warehouse and had several uses. It has been made into a very, very usable and attractive building, at least on the inside, and we have everybody now working in Arlington. Our signal covers the Washington metropolitan area, and we still serve the Washington metropolitan community. It was the community that helped us to get on the air. The people wanted the station. They worked for it, and they have provided the support, the financial support without which we could never have survived. INTERVIEWER: You also have gotten, have you, active support from the Arlington County Board? NARRATOR: The Arlington County Board has been very, very helpful. I found in my files the other day a letter which I had written when we were getting ready to move into Arlington in which I told the County Board that we were coming in and that we would be a part of the Arlington scene with our production facilities. When we were ready to purchase this building, the Arlington Board was very helpful in making it possible for us to borrow the money that we needed to help in the purchase. INTERVIEWER: Now Elizabeth, you have lived in Arlington for… NARRATOR: Almost 50 years. INTERVIEWER: Almost 50 years. Have you any general comments that you would like to make about Arlington as a place to live and as a growing community? NARRATOR: Well, I have been so much involved in Arlington's growth and development that I feel that it's just a wonderful place in which to live! The people have wanted the best things for Arlington, and they've been willing to work for it, and I feel privileged to have been a part of the community at the time when it was really growing and developing, when we were laying the foundation for the kind of community that we now have. I think it's an exceptionally fine community where people care about the community and about one another. INTERVIEWER: Thank you very much for your interview. It will be extremely helpful in our archives. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Campbell, September 3, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Elizabeth Campbell on September 3, 1984. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elizabeth Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3-Sep-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource English Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant campbellep19840903.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edmund Campbell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Campbell Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:07 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 171kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Campbell, September 3, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Elizabeth Campbell on September 3, 1984. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Item contains both typed transcript and audio recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elizabeth Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3-Sep-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbellep19840903 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/d6cb31aad7f81b35d67990d25c376e7e.mp3 26b498af4f15671c568f8728ac68ea10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, April 12, 1990, Audio Recording, Part 1 of 2 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Part 1 of an audio recorded oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on April 12, 1991. Interviewer is Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edmund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12-Apr-91 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19910412_part1.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/7e9233fbda72007c18d6d882add4ca8a.mp3 61578ee8ec0e1988541ad090ee70e137 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, April 12, 1990, Audio Recording, Part 2 of 2 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Part 2 of an audio recorded oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on April 12, 1991. Interviewer is Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edmund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12-Apr-91 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio format Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19910412_part2.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/8c0384b725befb3647f58af8987d2eec.pdf b38349e62c03763ba510702a05af34eb PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: Edmund D. Campbell INTERVIEWER: Cas Cocklin DATE: April 12, 1991 May 8, 1991 May 13, 1991 INTERVIEWER: [00:00:02] This is April 12, 1991. We are in the Columbia Pike branch of the Arlington County Library with an oral history interview. This is Cas Cocklin interviewing a very distinguished Arlington resident and one who has contributed greatly to the community as a whole and specifically to the oral history program because he has been doing these interviews for a number of years. Now he's on the receiving end. However, in 1975, he did do an interview from the Zonta Oral History Project, interviewed by Theda Nichols. So we will skip a few of the early details which were covered by that interview and let Mr. Edmund D. Campbell talk today about his various activities without so many questions to [00:01:00] interrupt. But I do have one specific question. The original interview mentioned your educational background. You were an economics major--graduate--from Washington and Lee. And then you switched later to law. Why was that? NARRATOR: I really didn't know what I wanted to do in a profession. I was not at all sure that I would like the law, and I was interested in the possibility of economics, the study of economics, and possibly the analysis of economics in, shall I call it, economic systems. But economists did not make a good living. And there were very few of them who [00:02:00] could operate in society, that is, the business society. I did get this masters degree at Harvard in economics, but not knowing what else to do, I came back and finished my law at Washington and Lee. INTERVIEWER: It was in law, then, that you perhaps could have more of a hands-on effect on things than an economist whose view is very long-range? NARRATOR: Yes, but I still wasn't sure I wanted to practice law, and I got this job with an economist in Washington. That was after I'd become a member of the bar. And I was with him for two or three years. The question came, how did I get into law. Well, I got into law because my economist employer went broke. And I had to get into law to make a living. INTERVIEWER: And what year was this? NARRATOR: This was in 1925. [00:03:00] I really didn't like the law for a while. It was not until I got actually trying cases and using the law as a vehicle for getting into civic work and matters affecting community generally, that I became really enamored of it as a profession. INTERVIEWER: It seemed a more useful profession? NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: When you first started practicing law, what were you involved in at first? NARRATOR: Simply routine cases, claims against people who didn't pay their debts, and drawing wills, and learning to draw trusts for people who wanted to set up trusts for their assets, and getting a general knowledge of general law from very distinguished [00:04:00] lawyers, Mr. Douglas and Mr. Obear in Washington. INTERVIEWER: Which Mr. Douglas? NARRATOR: That's Charles A. Douglas of Winsboro, South Carolina. INTERVIEWER: And you eventually set up your own law practice? NARRATOR: No, I became a member of the firm of Douglas Obear and Douglas, later known as Douglas Obear and Campbell, and practiced as a member of that firm, oh, until 1975 when we merged with another firm, now known as Jackson and Campbell. INTERVIEWER: And what brought you to Arlington? You originally had gone to Washington. NARRATOR: I suppose I came to Arlington to live, because my first wife's family was in Arlington. And we acquired a little house there. INTERVIEWER: [00:05:00] So you came to civic life through what medium? NARRATOR: Well, after Esther, my first wife, and I, came to Arlington, I got to know Charles Fenwick quite well. Charles Fenwick was very much interested in Arlington politics, served Arlington for two generations really, as a member of the House of Delegates in the Virginia General Assembly and the state Senate. And he got me originally interested in it. Arlington was in the early throes of a mammoth change in 1930. [00:06:00] Hugh Reid was an Arlington lawyer of real intellectual caliber. He was a member of the House of Delegates, the lower branch of the General Assembly. And he got the idea that this old rural small county, which consisted then of isolated neighborhoods in three different districts, ought to be a single developing county with a county manager form of government. There was only one county or city manager form of government in the United States at that time, and that was in Stanton, Virginia. [00:07:00] He had the idea that Arlington could use a county manager form of government. And he introduced really a revolutionary form of legislation in the General Assembly, which was adopted in 1930 as a Special County Manager Act. Reid was able to get the General Assembly to adopt this Act as special legislation denoted as general legislation. [00:08:00] Counties who by referendum wished to adopt it must have had a population of at least 500 persons per square mile. When you think of 500 persons per square mile, it doesn't sound like many people. But it gives you an indication of how rural Virginia was at this time. We now sometimes have almost 500 persons per square block in Arlington. In any event, this special legislation for Arlington was approved by voter referendum, enacted by the General Assembly in 1930, and in 1932 the first elected County Board took office. [00:09:19] At that time, there were five members of the County Board elected at-large and serving at-large. I got interested generally in that election, though not really participating much in it, largely through Charles Fenwick. The Chairman of the County Board was Charles Fenwick's father-in-law, Harry Fellows. He arranged to have me appointed as a member and Chairman of the Arlington Public Utilities Commission, which was a volunteer, non-salaried, [00:10:00] part-time commission. INTERVIEWER: It had been in existence before this? NARRATOR: No, it had just been created. It was charged with the duty of seeing what we could do with high gas rates, charged by the Washington Gaslight Company, which served Arlington. And these were Depression days, as you know, here in 1933. Well, we filed a petition with the State Corporation Commission, for a reduction in gas rates and argued the matter before the Commission. INTERVIEWER: Were you handling that matter as a lawyer? NARRATOR: I was handling that as a member of the Arlington Public Utilities Commission, acting as a lawyer too. We were able to get the State Corporation Commission to agree, or to [00:11:00] use its weight to get the Washington Gaslight Company to agree to a compromise reduction of rates. That reduction in rates, although it affected only a minority of the people in Arlington, brought me into some prominence, and gave me some public recognition. I got to talking a number of times with the members of the Arlington County Board on political matters, at their request. Now let me turn to the episode, which was referred to in my earlier interview, in which the [00:12:00] County Board of Arlington sought to ignore the judge's appointment of two people to fill vacancies in the County Board. In the Virginia Statutes, if there is a vacancy on a County Board of Supervisors, that vacancy was to be filled by the circuit judge until the next election. There were two vacancies on the Arlington County Board, due to resignations in 1933. Young Judge Walter McCarthy, the circuit judge in Arlington who had been appointed by the conservative [00:13:00] Virginia General Assembly, appointed two people who actually were quite distinguished, to fill those vacancies. One was Ben Smith, who did so much for Arlington in making contributions of land for old people's homes and whose son, Ed Smith, has already given his interview in the oral history project. The other was Christopher Garnett, a rather distinguished lawyer. Both of them were quite responsible appointments, and I didn't really realize at the time just how responsible they were. I was a little [00:14:00] fresh, and hadn't gotten completely dry behind the ears at that time. But anyway, Chairman Kelley, as shown in my previous interview, declared Judge McCarthy's appointments to be invalid, on the theory that the County Manager Act of Arlington said that the County Board would have all the powers of councils of cities and towns, which had the right to fill vacancies. We took the position that that Act applying to Arlington superseded the other statute, which gave the circuit judge [00:15:00] the right to fill such vacancies. So, at this meeting of the County Board they declared by motion that Judge McCarthy's appointment of Mr. Garnett and Mr. Smith was invalid, and proceeded to name me and a man named Joseph May as replacements for these two persons who had resigned. INTERVIEWER: Let me interrupt. Your objections to this were not really based originally on possible illegality but on the fact that they were appointments by a very conservative judge. NARRATOR: That was the reason the other three members of the County Board wanted to get into the matter. And obviously [00:16:00] the persons who were knocked out didn't care for it, and proceeded to file suit a mandamus in the Supreme Court of Virginia to have it declared invalid. INTERVIEWER: How long did that take? NARRATOR: Oh, it took only a couple of months because a mandamus proceeding is filed directly in the appellate court and not in the lower court. This was filed by Lawrence Douglas, who was Commonwealth Attorney, and I felt a very brilliant man and whom I came to know very well over the period of a generation. He was Commonwealth Attorney, he was at that time attorney for the County Board as well. [00:17:00] He, I felt then, was one of the reactionary old guard members of the County. And he filed the mandamus petition, argued in the Supreme Court of Virginia. I had as my counselor Albert Bryan, who later became a very distinguished federal judge in Alexandria. But the Supreme Court of Virginia proceeded in short order to kick me out of office, by its opinion in Smith vs. Kelly, a copy of which I have and will file as Exhibit 1. I came later to have great respect for Lawrence Douglas, [00:18:00] who called things as he saw them and who was on my side in many cases as well as being opposed to me in cases where he thought it was proper. [00:19:26] I did not mention in my previous interview the fact that within a few months after this incident, Lyman Kelley himself was charged with improper conduct as a member of the County Board. He was in the insurance business, and he and his company, [00:20:00] the A.L. Kelley Company, sold insurance to the County, in fact had most of the insurance that the County had at the time, and received commissions as insurance agent on the insurance sold, while he was Chairman of the County Board. He was charged with improper conduct under a statute which said that the person could be removed for acting under conflict of interest. He got me to represent him. This was the first case that I proceeded to lose as a lawyer there for a public official. INTERVIEWER: On what basis was the case decided against you? NARRATOR: The case was decided against me on the ground that it was improper for Lyman Kelley to make a profit in [00:21:00] selling goods or services to the County while holding public office. INTERVIEWER: Does that ruling still stand today? NARRATOR: Yes it does, and is applied most strictly. Kelley was removed from the County Board. The judge was Judge Coleman from Fredericksburg, who took the place of Judge McCarthy who disqualified himself from hearing the case. INTERVIEWER: Was that a shock in the community? NARRATOR: Oh yes, yes indeed. INTERVIEWER: Tell us what it was like among the people who were interested in County government. What were the reactions? NARRATOR: Well, of course it's a shock if a public official is removed from office. It's almost like impeachment of that official, [00:22:00] in fact it was a form of impeachment. Of course the impropriety was not gross, he had not stolen money or anything like that, he hadn't been bribed. It was something of a technical violation because the County would have had to pay the same amount of premium for insurance. INTERVIEWER: It's the perception that is there. NARRATOR: But the perception there-- INTERVIEWER: Not necessarily of wrongdoing, but of the opportunity for wrongdoing. NARRATOR: Correct. Well, that brought me still further into public view. And then about 1938, I think it was, members of the General Assembly from Arlington had reached the conclusion as a result, [00:23:00] I think, of pressure from the civic association, that it was not wise to have the County Board members elected all at once every four years. That you couldn't get public policies changed in four years if people thought they should be changed. And so there was another enabling act passed by the General Assembly, providing that if a referendum decided to do it, and this was on a referendum, that there would be a staggered term election of members of the County Board, one elected every year for three years and two elected on the fourth year. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned earlier that there were three districts in Arlington. NARRATOR: Correct. INTERVIEWER: And I would like you to mention them, but I have another question. Was there also at this time in the '30s, [00:24:00] any impetus to elect members of the County Board from districts? But first, what were the three districts, just as a matter of record? NARRATOR: You know, I don't recall the names of the districts. I think one was the Cherrydale District, one was the Southern Arlington District, and the third nearly to Falls Church, the western. The County Manager Act provided as you know for the election of Board members at-large. INTERVIEWER: But was there any impetus to try to change that at that time? NARRATOR: No, I really don't recall that. But they did change the Act and provide for the election on staggered terms. I think some fifteen or eighteen people put their names in the ring for election to the [00:25:00] County Board on staggered terms. It was provided that the two getting the highest number of votes would be elected for four year terms, the next for three, two, and one, respectively. INTERVIEWER: Was there a great deal of response from the community on this? I mean, do you recall what percentage of registered voters were voting in these County elections? NARRATOR: No, I don't recall. I can tell you that there was a comparatively small turnout because I recall that in a later election when I was defeated on a third term as a member of the County Board, that there were some 6,000 votes for my opponent and some 5,000 for me, so that was only approximately 11,000 thousand total, and that was in 1946. INTERVIEWER: I don't know how many were in the County at that time. NARRATOR: Well, in 1940, the population of the County was approximately 50,000. [00:26:00] Well, in any event, this election of Board members under the new staggered term act was held and I became one of eighteen candidates. During the campaign I got a call from Hugh Reid, whom I got to know quite well. Hugh Reid was a very good friend of Mr. Harry Green, who was the Commissioner of Revenue of Arlington County, and a high principled man [00:27:00] but who was a member of the Byrd political machine and almost a political boss of the County. Hugh Reid thought I was all right, and he was a good friend of Mr. Green's. Reid said to me one day that if I would talk to Mr. Green, he thought it would help me. So Reid had previously talked to Mr. Green and Mr. Green was ready to support me in this election. INTERVIEWER: So what was your little interview like? Do you remember? NARRATOR: Mr. Green said, "I've heard very good things about you from Mr. Reid, and I think you would probably make a good member of the County Board, and I believe I'm going to support you." I said, "That'd be great, Mr. Green." It would make all the difference in the world! He did not ask me anything about my views, not one word about how my votes would be. INTERVIEWER: Perhaps he didn't want to hear it. Or did he think that you-- NARRATOR: I think he thought I would be all right. [00:28:00] In any event, the election was had, and I came out third which meant I had a three-year term. INTERVIEWER: You had a three-year term? Oh, you were one of the three, I see, this was the first election. NARRATOR: The first election of all five, you see, under the staggered terms. INTERVIEWER: Yes, I understand how they are elected. NARRATOR: And the first two, the two getting the highest votes, were elected for four years. The third would be elected for three years, the fourth for two years, and the fifth for one year. And I got the three-year term. I served for seven years as a member of the County Board. At the end of my first three-year term, I don't know how it happened, but I was reelected with no opponent. [00:29:00] This was during the war, you see, we had gotten into the war in 1941. And Arlington was, even before that time, beginning to expand quite rapidly. I think Colonial Village was built in '39, as I remember. At the time, the war employees came in. INTERVIEWER: What were the issues that you were involved in mostly, on the Arlington County Board during those years? NARRATOR: Well, we were having a very hard time keeping up with the burgeoning population. And we just had to do the best we could in developing highways, putting in a modern sewer system, providing [00:30:00] for sewage disposal, everything else. I have possibly three things I can point to that I was particularly interested in in Arlington, or two, and the third one an incident I would like to comment on. The first was the adoption of a master zoning plan. Arlington had never had a master zoning plan. I, and other members of the County Board, worked with Frank Dieter, who was our zoning administrator and a very high type man, in trying to develop a master zoning plan. And one was developed, and I think I had the great honor of signing it, the first zoning plan, I believe, in 1942. And I was Chairman of the County Board for that year. The second was the establishment of a park program. [00:31:00] Believe it or not, Arlington had not developed any parks. INTERVIEWER: That's not hard to believe when you have counties that have been rural and have lots of room and few people. NARRATOR: But we had [00:31:15] END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE Narrator’s addition: We had trouble getting a park program through the County Board. I remember Ms. MacGruder, who was a member of the County Board, said it was much more important to develop our streets than to develop parks. And I said, "Well, if we don't get them now, we'll not get them." And I was instrumental in getting through the first County bond issue on parks. Well, I was able to get through, over some opposition on the County Board, the first bond issue for parks, which was in the total sum of only $500,000. [00:31:18] BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO INTERVIEWER: $500,000 or $500? NARRATOR: $500,000. Not $5 million or $50 million, but $500,000. INTERVIEWER: Well, a half a million back in 1945-- NARRATOR: That was helpful. And then after, I remember real difficulty in getting Mr. Frank Hanrahan, who was the County Manager and in many ways a very good County Manager, to spend the money. It was two years before I could get him to buy any land under that bond issue. INTERVIEWER: What were the first purchases? NARRATOR: I honestly don't remember now. [00:32:00] But we were working on it. INTERVIEWER: You didn't have then the baseball diamonds and all the things like that? NARRATOR: No. We also developed, when I was on the County Board, the concept which had not been developed before, of having the school properties used for recreation purposes by the general population after school hours. We had great opposition from the old school administration on the adoption of such programs. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I'm sure. What were the first uses? NARRATOR: There were the baseball diamonds for athletic purposes after school hours. INTERVIEWER: And for meetings and things like that? Public meetings. NARRATOR: Oh, yes. And this had not been done before. [00:33:00] Let me mention a little incident which occurred, or a series of incidents which occurred when I was on the County Board, which certainly shocked my conscience, but which apparently did not worry some of my colleagues on the Board. At that time, there was a so-called numbers, anti-numbers racket legislation, ordinances, existing in Arlington. These ordinances--I say "ordinances," there may have been only one--prohibited engaging in gambling on numbers. I suppose everyone knows what the numbers racket is, [00:34:00] you pick your own number and if it happens to have a number that is on the Washington Post that day, you win. The chances are greatly against you, but it was a form of lottery, and was prohibited under ordinance in Arlington. And people were hailed before the Trial Justice and if found guilty, were sentenced to thirty to sixty days in jail. Defending people charged with violation of the numbers racket was a lucrative business for, let's call them small-time lawyers, in Arlington County. INTERVIEWER: You never did this? NARRATOR: No, I was not engaged in that business. There was a lawyer named Alfred Jones, [00:35:00] now dead, in Arlington, who was Associate Trial Justice. That is, he would sit as Trial Justice as a nominee appointee of Benjamin Hedrick who was the Trial Justice of Arlington, when Hedrick was away. He was also a practicing attorney, and as a practicing attorney represented a number of these people charged with violations of the numbers racket when they were hailed before the Trial Justice. I recall that on a half-dozen occasions, he had represented persons charged with violations of the numbers racket--who engaged in the numbers racket--who had been found guilty by Judge Hedrick. [00:36:00] And that on several occasions, when Judge Hedrick was away from Arlington or not sitting as Trial Judge, Mr. Jones was sitting as Associate Trial Judge. And on a number of these occasions, people that he had defended and had been found guilty came before that court for sentencing. And Associate Judge Jones would look down at the defendant for whom he had previously acted as counsel-- INTERVIEWER: And about whom he knew, presumably, a lot of details? NARRATOR: Yes. And proceeded to sentence him, either lightly or heavily, I generally thought quite lightly, [00:37:00] for fine for violating the law from which he had previously defended him. INTERVIEWER: And did no one at the bar association question this? NARRATOR: The bar association did not, had not objected to it, but I raised Cain when I found out about it, and made some real public utterances which found their way into the front pages of the Washington papers. Thereupon I suggested to the County Board that if the practice didn't stop, we should move to cut Jones' salary, or see that he got no salary as Associate Trial Justice. INTERVIEWER: And what happened? NARRATOR: The bar association [00:38:00] appointed a committee to investigate it. On that committee was Miss Anna Hedrick, the sister of the Trial Judge. And I remember the committee got me before them, and Miss Hedrick said, "There's nothing wrong with this." And I said, "There is." And we just disagreed. The bar committee did not do anything about it, but he stopped the practice. INTERVIEWER: So you accomplished your purpose? NARRATOR: Accomplished the purpose. One other matter that occurred in my tenure on the County Board, had to do with the assessment of real property in Arlington. At that time, real property was [00:39:00] assessed only every four years. With the war coming on, property values were skyrocketing. They had been assessed in 1941, and came up for assessment four years later. Nothing had been done on that. Property values had skyrocketed, and the County Manager had not taken any steps, nor had the County Treasurer or, in this instance, Mr. Green as Commissioner of Revenue, taken any steps to get a new assessment. Mr. Green asked, and I thought he was quite wrong in this, [00:40:00] that the legislature which was in session that year, permit the assessment to be postponed for a year, because they were late in getting started on it. I vigorously opposed it, but my colleagues went along with Mr. Green and voted to ask the General Assembly to postpone the assessment. And it was postponed for a year. And I think to great harm to Arlington. I mention it because the matter came up when I was running for a third term on the County Board, and I didn't want to do it, I didn't want to run for a third term. INTERVIEWER: Why didn't you want to run on the third term? NARRATOR: I had had enough. Judge Howard Smith was a [00:41:00] very conservative member of Congress and was representing Arlington, Fairfax, Alexandria and Loudoun Counties in the so-called 8th Congressional District, and he was coming on for reelection. My friend Charlie Fenwick urged me to run again as a Democratic nominee, thinking that as a liberal Democrat, I might help Judge Smith who thought he might have some serious opposition. Well he did have some opposition, in the 8th District. This was my great mistake. A nonpartisan group had just gotten started in Arlington. [00:42:00] INTERVIEWER: Now what group was this? NARRATOR: This was a group headed by Harley Williams. And they did not like Judge Smith, did not like the fact that I was on the County Board, running as a Democrat. They thought that there should be a nonpartisan member of the County Board, and they got Dan Dugan to run against me on the nonpartisan ticket. You see, under the Hatch Act, federal employees could not then campaign for political party candidates. Dugan was a federal employee. [00:43:00] I mentioned my opposition to postponing the assessment, because it was Dugan's great platform that the assessment had been postponed for the sake of real estate operators. I was not able to get out to the County adequately the fact that I had voted against the postponement of the assessment. It was one of the great factors in that loss. I was defeated for a third term by a margin of 1,000 votes. INTERVIEWER: Before we started taping this, you mentioned the word "hectic" describing the years of the late thirties to forties and the fifties, [00:44:00] and "turmoil" was another word to use. There were a lot of struggles going on in Arlington in those days. Could you give us a feel of what it was like, and who were the people who fought a lot of these struggles that helped make Arlington what it is today? NARRATOR: Well, Arlington was changed enormously in a very short time. INTERVIEWER: Just as it is today in the last ten years or so. But in a different way. NARRATOR: In a different way today. The changes today are changes in building structure, but Arlington has been a municipality for some time, a real municipality, a form of a city for the last ten or fifteen years. But in 1939, [00:45:00] it was still a group of small communities. In fact, you know, from my previous interview, we had rural post office boxes in Arlington for a while. It was some time before we had one single post office, believe it or not. INTERVIEWER: And there was not a uniform street system or anything like that. There weren't that many streets. NARRATOR: That's correct. But here came the war. And Arlington tripled in population, almost, within ten years. And the old guard, the small businessman, the people who had been here some time, the old Virginians [00:46:00] resented the influx of newcomers with different ideas. INTERVIEWER: Many of whom were "Damn Yankees." NARRATOR: Damn Yankees. Had no feeling for the old Virginia and were much more interested in good streets and good schools than they were in holding taxes down to a minimum. And they were not concerned with the traditions of old Virginia in the same sense that some of the old guard had been in Virginia. And it's difficult for us today to understand the great turmoil, [00:47:00] political and civic turmoil that existed between these groups of people during really a period from the time I got on the County Board or soon afterwards, until well into the fifties and then continuing on on another basis, that is on the segregation issue, until the early sixties. Turmoil existed and I was often thought to be a traitor to my clan, if you please, because my friends thought me to be extremely radical [00:48:00] and going over to the new group. This view was held despite my long Virginia heritage, discussed in my previous interview. It made things somewhat difficult for me. INTERVIEWER: Why were you like that and why were they not? Was it your family or was it your education up north, however brief up there? Was it reading you had done that made you look at things from a broader perspective? NARRATOR: I suppose you really ought to get that from someone else. I think I, I hope I have an open mind, and keep an open mind, and like to be on the [00:49:00] forefront of things rather than always having things as they were. But Elizabeth and I were always interested in education and I think that if you take one single factor, it was because we were so horrified with the education system as it existed, and continued to exist in Arlington and Virginia as a whole until the late forties. INTERVIEWER: And it still isn't very good, in parts of Virginia, after all these years, in some of the southeast, southwest counties, and downstate. NARRATOR: And then the turmoil continued into the segregation era, [00:50:00] but I'll come to that later. INTERVIEWER: Before we come to that, you're talking about the old guard. Now this old guard must have been almost exclusively members of the Byrd machine. Would you like to comment on the Byrd machine just briefly, and what its impact was on Arlington and how much of it extends today, not very much into Arlington, but how much extends into the Virginia legislature today, which of course affects Arlington? NARRATOR: Well, the late Senator Harry F. Byrd was a legend for thirty years or more. He had been Governor of Virginia in the twenties and a very efficient governor. [00:51:00] He got a remarkable control of Virginia politics because of a system by which the state supplemented salaries of local elected officials. The so-called Compensation Board could supplement the salaries which the cities and counties awarded to judges, commissioners of revenue, to treasurers, and sheriffs. You must remember that if [00:52:00] you try to pick out the leaders of a community who control the politics of the community you get the judges and the sheriffs, and the county or city treasurers, and the commissioners of revenue, and with those you've just about got it. Well, he had established the State Compensation Board and one way or another, controlled it for a generation. And so his influence was very strong. Byrd was a man of integrity, in the sense that he would not tolerate any direct venality in the state government. And Virginia to this day has a heritage of [00:53:00] clean government, which I attribute largely to Byrd. Byrd's political was somewhat indirect, through the State Compensation Board. But Virginia was a naturally conservative community. Byrd got Virginia to adopt a pay as you go policy on the government highways at a time when most states were borrowing heavily to develop their roads. This kept Virginia back, undoubtedly, in its industrial development compared with, say, the state of North Carolina which went way ahead of it, but when Virginia's roads were finally developed, they were better than those developed in the neighboring states. In any event, Virginia became, and the conservative Virginians became proud of Byrd. [00:54:00] And he controlled Virginia's Democratic politics and state politics as a whole. INTERVIEWER: Conservative politics of status quo. Don't rock the boat? NARRATOR: He had a policy of status quo. And during this period, Virginia's educational system dropped to forty-ninth out of the fifty states. INTERVIEWER: Only Mississippi, I think. NARRATOR: Only Mississippi ranked below it. INTERVIEWER: Well, its mental health facilities, I know, during that period, dropped. It was forty eight in the amount of money spent on mental health. NARRATOR: Byrd would not tolerate unions, labor unions, and would favor any possible way to prevent labor unions. This included the welfare system. INTERVIEWER: So now, how did this affect Arlington? NARRATOR: Well-- INTERVIEWER: [00:55:00] And when you were on the County Board? NARRATOR: It meant that the public officials, the existing public officials, were voting the way Mr. Byrd wanted them to vote. It meant they were voting for small taxes. It meant they were not interested in school development, except to the extent that he liked, it meant they were not interested in bringing Virginia into what I consider to be the twentieth century. And so I rather early developed a sort of free lance position in it, and became a, after I got on the County Board, considered to be somewhat of a maverick. It really developed, came to a head in two areas. One was in the [00:56:00] development of the school system. And the second one some ten years later in the desegregation fight. INTERVIEWER: Well, perhaps, we can move onto that now. So why don't you start in on the schools? NARRATOR: Well, I did not get really involved in any way in the school fight until after I'd been defeated on the County Board, at which time I said, "Well, if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em." And I felt I'd been a little misunderstood as far as my views were concerned in the last part of my County Board tenure, but in any event, [00:57:00] it was about this time that both Elizabeth and I got extremely interested in the matter. And started working with Oscar LeBeau, who got so provoked at some meeting with the superintendent of schools, Fletcher Camp, that he started writing the names of a bunch of people on an envelope, as he told me later, to form a new citizen's group to see what he could do for schools. He was the founder of the Citizen Committee for School Improvement ("CCSI"). Elizabeth and I [00:58:00] were early charter members of that group. We, by some miraculous stroke of luck, got J. Maynard Magruder, who was our delegate to the General Assembly at that time (we only had one delegate), to introduce legislation providing that Arlington would have a right on referendum to elect its own School Board. That was enacted in 1947. I think he thought nobody would pay any attention to it. But there it was. The Citizen Committee for School Improvement immediately started this campaign; it had the referendum in 1947, [00:59:00] and it was rather overwhelmingly adopted by a 2-1 margin. Thereupon the CCSI proceeded to try to see what it could do to elect School Board members. I remember we had a mass meeting in the old Lyon Park Community Center. Somehow they got me to act as chairman of that convention. I remember the convention took place in summer of 1948. The place was packed and jammed in a very hot summer night and no air conditioning and five persons were nominated [01:00:00] to serve on the School Board. They were Barnard Joy, Draheim, my wife, Elizabeth Campbell, Curtis Tuthill. There was a professor, I think, of Psychology at George Washington, and Colin McPherson, who later became Treasurer of Arlington County. This team had a vigorous campaign against the existing appointed members of the School Board, [01:01:00] who I felt had not done very much, and defeated them by a two to one margin. They had run in the fall election. The party members had run for election and were rather overwhelmingly defeated. Those members, at the risk of repetition, had been appointed under an old system in Virginia which provided that they would be selected by a school trustee electoral board which in turn had been appointed by the circuit court of Arlington County who was Judge McCarthy, and who was then still conservative. And certainly the School Board as it then existed was not doing anything to further the promotion of the schools, [01:02:00] to really bring them into, as I say, the twentieth century. So they were not elected, and our group was elected by a rather overwhelming majority. But that was only the beginning. Because within a few weeks after the election, before the School Board was to take office, Harry Porter, who was the chairman of the old School Board, filed a suit against the new School Board. Harry Porter, as I was saying, was chairman of the old School Board, filed a suit for the declaratory judgment against the newly elected School Board members, saying that the act which provided for the elected School Board with special legislation was invalid, was unconstitutional, and asked [01:03:00] Judge McCarthy to rule that the School Board was improperly elected. You can imagine what that did to the County. The new School Board did not know whether to take office, it did not know who would pay the teachers. The County was, if I may say so, in a hell of a fix. The whole County was in rising turmoil. It wasn't too long before the School Board got me to represent them. The names of Frank Ball and some of my partners also appear [01:04:05] on the list of attorneys named in the opinion of the State Supreme Court. Meanwhile we had reached an interim agreement, because we had to, with the old School Board, by which the new School Board would temporarily take office under this cloud, during the period when the litigation was going on and that by that agreement the teachers could be paid. Well, Judge McCarthy decided then in favor of the new School Board. Mr. Porter appealed to the Supreme Court of Virginia which heard the case and affirmed Judge McCarthy's decision that the law was constitutional and that the new School Board [01:05:00] properly held office. INTERVIEWER: Now, when was this? NARRATOR: That was in the summer of 1949. The School Board meanwhile had taken office in '48. A copy of the Supreme Court's opinion may be interesting to people who want to know about these times. And I have a copy which I will file as Exhibit 2. [01:05:36] PAUSE IN RECORDING [01:06:21] RECORDING BEGINS ON MAY 8, 1981 [01:06:50] After the Supreme Court decision establishing official status of the newly elected School Board, the new School Board got hard at work. They had meetings dozens of times, many of them in our house, and I informally helped Elizabeth and the others, discussing constantly with School Board members the work that they were doing. Because the overcrowded County schools were on double shifts, the School Board proceeded to offer school bond issues, all but one of which were approved by substantial majorities. INTERVIEWER: The school population was burgeoning? NARRATOR: Burgeoning. It's interesting that voters do not want to vote for bond issues until the emergency becomes so acute that it can't be ignored. But, in this case, that was the situation in [01:08:00] Arlington. The School Board was working with new forms of schools, new forms of school buildings, which had not been used in Virginia. INTERVIEWER: Could you describe what some of those were? NARRATOR: Simply more modern techniques, the types of buildings that spread over more ground, and did not go up, but spread, and the board had some trouble with the Virginia Architectural Review group that was handling public schools generally through the state. Finally that group began to respect the new techniques that the School Board was offering in its buildings, and I think came to change its own [01:09:00] rules for school building, its own procedures as a result of that. INTERVIEWER: Were you working with local architects or did you have to follow the state plans slavishly? NARRATOR: They were working with local architects. They were to some extent restricted by state regulations, and they were able to get some of those changed. I was not actively engaged in that. I was consulted from time to time. INTERVIEWER: I understand. When I said, "you" I didn't mean you personally. I meant the people at the time, Elizabeth.... NARRATOR: This was really indicative of the general situation with respect to the relationship between Arlington and the state government. Arlington, as I think I previously said, had doubled in population in a decade and there was a real feeling in the state government that Arlingtonians [01:10:00] were a bunch of radical newcomers and were not good for the old established state of Virginia. We cannot really get a real understanding of this situation until you consider the power of what I call the Byrd machine. The Byrd machine represented the establishment in Virginia. Everybody who was anybody was a supporter of Harry Byrd. I was in difficulty and my wife Elizabeth was in difficulty, because although we were established Virginians from the point of view of length of time that we'd been in the state, and of course I was born in the state, we had gone over to the radical or the new element from the point of view of the old residents, [01:11:00] and I think were considered by many traitors to our background, much as Franklin Roosevelt had been considered a traitor to his established background from a national point of view. This really did not concern us, but it will be pointed out a little more in detail later the effect of it. The State Supreme Court decision legitimizing the new School Board was in 1949, and then, as I say, these acts of the new School Board proceeded in the next few years and were really transforming the schools into first rate schools which received national attention. [01:12:00] There was also, as you know, a change in the superintendent of schools during this period. Mr. Fletcher Kemp, who was trying to cooperate with the new School Board, was replaced with a man named William Early who acted very effectively in helping the schools. I can't let this period pass without paying a special tribute to the late Barnard Joy, who has already been interviewed here on tape for the Arlington Library, he was an enormously effective power in the school system. He was a brilliant man. I don't know how he continued to [01:13:00] find time to do his very responsible work in the Department of Agriculture in the United States Government. But he was a great leader in the new school movement. INTERVIEWER: Well, he had a way of pulling people together at times that perhaps someone who might have been more acerbic couldn't have done. NARRATOR: He was a consensus builder. Well, during this period, from 1949 for a couple of years after that, I as a so-called liberal democrat, an anti-Byrd democrat, had been active in attempting to get the status of the democratic committee of Arlington changed. I became a member of the democratic committee and we were trying to get progressive or liberal or [01:14:00] anti-Byrd democrats elected to the committee so that, if possible, we could have control of it. I really had not succeeded by that time, but I was working with the nonpartisans then in trying to get the liberal members elected to the Arlington County Board. In 1950, I think it was, we got Bob Cox elected to the Arlington County Board, and in 1951, I believe it was, the fall of 1951, Alan Dean was elected. Bob Cox, Alan Dean, and [01:15:00] Daniel Dugan were all federal government employees. But they, in 1952 constituted a majority of the Arlington County Board. And the Arlington County Board, from my point of view, at that time, began to operate in a different fashion for the benefit of the County. Well, all at once, without any prior notice, a suit was filed by a man named Paolicelli, obviously with the backing of the Arlington old guard, [01:16:00] the suit was filed before Judge McCarthy in the Circuit Court and heard by Judge McCarthy. It claimed that the federal employees could not serve on the County Board, that a special act of the Virginia Assembly which permitted federal employees to serve on the County Board, even though there was a constitutional provision, which said generally speaking that federal employees could not act in local office, whereas in reality this was a stupendous political gambit, because if it succeeded it would change the whole [01:17:00] character of the Arlington County government. Judge McCarthy heard the case. Alan Dean and Bob Cox asked me to represent them. I did, and argued the case before Judge McCarthy. INTERVIEWER: Who was representing Dan Dugan or was he still-- NARRATOR: No, I appeared for Dan Dugan too. I appeared for all three. And Judge McCarthy heard the case before a rather packed court room. I remember Judge McCarthy used to love to dig up cases that nobody had ever heard of. Counsellors on both sides had argued the case before Judge McCarthy, and he said he would take it under advisement. He came back one day with his opinion. And he said, "I've found another case that the counsel [01:18:00] had not cited." The case was in re Galilee. It was decided by the Supreme Court of Virginia but it was in a special volume, not those regular volumes where reports are generally found. INTERVIEWER: Is that Galilee? NARRATOR: Galilee. "I think this case is important," Judge McCarthy says. "And, like the man of Galilee, I hold that no man can serve two masters. And therefore, I decide that the three members of the County Board who were federal employees [01:19:00] were improperly serving two masters in office." With one fell swoop he changed the entire status of the County government. Judge McCarthy said to me one time, because I thought this was an awful judicial coup d'etat, he said to me, "I consider that when I am acting to appoint County Board members or School Board members to replace persons who have been out of office, that I am acting here not in a judicial capacity but in a political capacity." [01:20:00] And there was no question that Judge McCarthy was an ardent supporter of the Byrd machine. Well, three other members of the County Board were appointed, there was an election shortly after that, and the conservatives were put in the majority of the Arlington County Board. With one fell swoop the whole nature of the Arlington County government had been changed. The liberal element of Arlington, I would call it the progressive element, which was willing to spend tax money for good schools, was shocked, in a way. INTERVIEWER: Disenfranchised. [01:21:00] NARRATOR: Disenfranchised. This decision was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Virginia in a long, labored opinion, which I am going to file as Exhibit 3. This decision was not rendered until 1953. Meanwhile, as a result of the 1950 census, the state of Virginia had granted that it was entitled to another Congressional district. And created a new tenth district, composed of the counties of Arlington and Fairfax, and the cities of Alexandria and Falls Church. And there was to be an [01:22:00] election for Congressman for this new district, in the fall of 1952. That was the year in which Eisenhower was Republican nominee and Stevenson was the Democratic nominee for president. Although Stevenson was a Democrat the old guard, if I may say so, in Virginia could not find their way to support him, and, as I'll point out in a minute, Byrd finally said that he could not support Stevenson for president. But there was a substantial group of liberals, I say progressives, in northern Virginia, who sent representatives to see me to ask me if I would [01:23:00] run for Congress that year. INTERVIEWER: These people were people who had been active in politics, or did they represent civic associations? NARRATOR: No, they were active in politics, but they were not there in any official capacity. INTERVIEWER: I understand that, but did they come from civic associations or PTAs-- NARRATOR: No, I would say they came more from the committees. There were only about four of them. They came to see me. They were members of the Democratic committees of the different areas, except for Virginia Stitzenberger from Arlington. They asked if I would run for Democratic nomination for Congress in this new district. My law firm didn't like it, but I finally decided to do it. [01:24:00] INTERVIEWER: Why did you decide to do it? NARRATOR: I suppose it's a mixture of personal ambition and, really, a feeling that somebody had to go ahead and see if they couldn't break the stranglehold that existed in the state of Virginia. INTERVIEWER: At that time Congressmen from Virginia were all members of the Byrd machine. NARRATOR: We had quite a vigorous primary. There were three candidates. I was one. Maynard Magruder, who was a delegate from Arlington to the General Assembly, and a member of the Byrd machine, was the preferred candidate. He was also in the race. And the third candidate, Charles Carlin. [01:25:00] INTERVIEWER: The editor and publisher of the Alexandria Gazette. NARRATOR: He was the real determinate in the primary race, because he took votes away from Magruder. In this three-way race I was successful and became the Democratic nominee. I had a very hard time getting any active support from the old guard membership, the Democratic committee in the final fall race. And this was a very hectic and somewhat bitter race in many ways. Our Joel Broyhill, who as you know, won and held the office in Congress for some twenty years, was our [01:26:00] opponent. [omitted] [01:26:35] The race was a hard but very rewarding experience, because enormous groups of the newer people in Arlington rallied on my side. [01:27:00] Eisenhower, as the Republican nominee, carried the district by 15,000 votes but Broyhill, who was on Eisenhower's ticket, won the race in Congress by only 200 votes. Actually, we won in Arlington, we won in Alexandria, and we won in Falls Church, by narrow margins. But the margin of victory for Broyhill came from the rural areas in Fairfax. INTERVIEWER: Let me append a footnote to this. I was president of the League of Women Voters of Alexandria at the time of this campaign, and we had a Candidate's Night, and you appeared and so did Joel T. Broyhill appear. And I can't remember, it seems to me there was someone else, but perhaps it was another office. [01:28:00] And Mr. Broyhill made his pitch, and of course there were to be questions afterwards and he said, "I am sorry. I have so many engagements I cannot stay. Thank you." And he marched off and we were furious because he or someone on his staff had agreed that he would stay for questions. And you did, but he did not, and it left a rather bad taste. NARRATOR: Well one of the things that helped me in that campaign was the fact that Broyhill did not want to answer questions and after four or five of our debates, he said he couldn't engage in any more, so we stopped the individual debates. Let me say, in connection with that campaign simply a personal word, and that is though, of course we were bitterly disappointed, quite disappointed at the beginning, [01:29:00] after about two or three months I began to be glad I wasn't elected. INTERVIEWER: Well, if you had been elected, you probably would have had to have another vigorous campaign in two years, and another one in two years, and who knows what the future would have brought. NARRATOR: Broyhill developed a very effective office, for the point of view of handling constituent complaints, and that was the critical factor in his getting reelected over and over in this area. I want to add one thing in connection with this race and the decision of Judge McCarthy in the Supreme Court of Virginia, which came [01:30:00] almost at the same time, within a year, knocking out our whole new County Board team. It was, of course, quite a hectic period in my life. It left, shall we say, a permanent physical wound. In 1953, after the final decision in the Supreme Court of Virginia, I proceeded to lose my hair, and I have not had any since on my head. INTERVIEWER: That made quite an effect, didn't it? NARRATOR: There was one another incident I might mention, indicating the intensity of the feeling in Arlington. [01:31:00] I had in the 1930s been a member of the Washington Golf and Country Club. I'd resigned later in the '30s, really because of financial reasons. But after these events in 1953 I thought I would apply for readmission. I had a sponsor and applied for readmission to the Washington Golf and Country Club. Also one of my active supporters, Collier by name, had applied for membership in the Washington Golf and Country Club. It was interesting that I was turned down, and admittedly because of political activities. I really haven't regretted it [01:32:00] since, but shows to some extent the general situation which existed there. INTERVIEWER: Now, the school situation, let's go back to that briefly. There was a second suit, wasn't there? What did that consist of? NARRATOR: Well, John Locke Green, the Republican Treasurer, the rather maverick Treasurer of Arlington County, then filed another suit against the Arlington School Board members, claiming that the three members who were employees of the federal government could not serve on the Arlington School Board. [01:33:00] This case also came before Judge McCarthy. [omitted] [01:33:50] END TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE Narrator’s addition: Strangely enough, in this case Judge McCarthy ruled in favor of the School Board. He declared that federal employment was no bar to service on the School Board. [01:33:53] BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO [omitted] [01:34:27] This case was also appealed to the Supreme Court of Virginia (this time by Green). I did not participate directly in that case, but was consulting constantly with the attorneys who were representing the School Board. I believe Jim Simmonds was one. He is a lawyer who has already been interviewed here in this Oral History Program and I think Frank Ball was the other. [01:35:00] The Supreme Court of Virginia, in this case, distinguished the School Boards from County Boards, and decided in favor of the School Board, the existing School Board. This made me feel better about the judicial process in Virginia, because I really had been feeling quite low in what I considered to be an archaic attitude [01:36:00] of the state judiciary and the state legislature. Well, that was the helpful development, from our point of view. I want to come now to the election of the County Board in 1954 and the resulting development of Arlingtonians for a Better County, ABC. I was still an active Democrat in local politics, rather than a nonpartisan. My feeling that somehow we needed the Democratic Party in state elections and we had to use them also in County elections [01:37:00] in order to get the best effect in those elections. In the 1954 campaign I promoted the candidacy of Brian Bell, the young man who had helped me in my Congressional campaign and who was a very able young progressive who was willing to get into County politics. I tried to get him approved also in the nonpartisan mass meeting which was to be held to nominate a candidate and talked to [01:38:00] some of the leaders of these nonpartisan movement then. They said they would be glad to have Mr. Bell run in the nonpartisan mass meeting, but there was another person that wanted to run, and he was going to run come hell or high water, and they could not guarantee that he would be, in any sense, nominated and that, of course if he was not nominated in the mass meeting he had to agree that he would not run in the Democratic Primary. Well, both the nonpartisan leaders and I and some other progressive active Democrats were stubborn in the matter. INTERVIEWER: Would you care to name them? NARRATOR: Well, actually, I don't know if I can. [01:39:00] I think Virginia Stitzenberger was one and, that's holding back, but I'm not sure I can name them now. Well in any event, we decided that Brian Bell ought to go ahead and run. The nonpartisan group held a mass meeting and nominated Ivan Booker, who was a fine man, but I thought completely lacked any effective personality if he became member of the County Board. The Republicans nominated Mrs. Buckholtz, who had been a member of the County Board before, who was then a member of the County Board. [01:40:00] She ran for reelection. The election was hard-fought as many of these are. Alan Dean, who I believe had also been interviewed here in this program, was campaign manager for Mr. Booker, and a more effective and able campaign manager never existed. Mr. Booker ran rings around Brian Bell in many ways in the door-to-door canvassing of the newer apartment areas in Arlington. I didn't have the time or the disposition to get in that kind of campaign and therefore I wasn't really, I think, very effective. In any event, the votes were in. Booker led Bell substantially. [01:41:00] But trailed Buckholtz and Buckholtz came into office by a narrow margin, much to the chagrin of both Dean and myself. One of Booker's most active supporters had been Ruth Cox, wife of Robert Cox, who had been a member of the School Board--did you know her? INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: I remember that two days after the campaign and the election, Virginia Stitzenberger called me up and said, "Ed, I want you to come down to my home. Ruth Cox is down here. And there are some things I want to talk to you both about." I went down there and Ruth [01:42:00] and I hardly spoke to each other. We were nursing our wounds. And Virginia said, "Something's got to be done about this thing." She said, "You all have got to find a way to get together." And finally as the evening wore on, it was agreed that we would try to see if we could form some sort of a coalition, because this made no sense, just tearing each other apart in these elections. INTERVIEWER: Now this was when? NARRATOR: This was just after the election in 1954. So we arranged to call a meeting, we said we've got to have a coalition here and see if we couldn't be a little different from the strictly nonpartisan thing, and have a something that Democrats could legitimately get in, [01:43:00] and Republicans if they want, and we would have it a three-way thing, a coalition of progressive Republicans, progressive Democrats and progressive nonpartisans, all nonpartisans being theoretically progressive. So we arranged for this meeting of 15 people, and I think Allen Dean was very active in that. We had 5 Democrats, 5 Republicans, and 5 so-called nonpartisans. INTERVIEWER: Can you name those people? I know Fuller Groom was one of them. NARRATOR: No, Bob Groom. Fuller Groom I guess was one too. And Allen Dean was head of the nonpartisan area, and I was the head of the Democratic group. I'm sorry I can't [01:44:00] name all 15. But we had a very good meeting, and we called another one of 55, of which 15 were to be Republicans, 15 Democrats, and 15 nonpartisans, and 10, oh, leaders of the community if we could. They were not particularly active in any group. And we had this group, and it was one of the most successful things you could imagine. We formed this Arlingtonians for a Better County, ABC. INTERVIEWER: Where were you meeting? NARRATOR: We met in one of the school buildings, I don't recall where that was. But it got to going very well. So we formed this group [01:45:00] in 1955. We agreed on 3 co-chairmen, so that each group would be represented. Dean for the nonpartisan group, Bob Groom, the son of Fuller Groom, for the Republican group, which was having a hard time filling 15 spots, and me for the Democratic group. We won that election handily, with two very able candidates. One was Ralph Kaul, and one was David Krupsaw. So that was the beginning of ABC, which has been a very effective [01:46:00] movement in the County ever since. Well, that was in 1955, but I want to go back to 1954, and the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States, which of course changed all our lives, and was a very powerful force in the politics of Arlington County for the balance of this decade. That was the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Brown against the Board of Education, in which the Court held by unanimous vote, that the public schools of the nation must be desegregated with all deliberate speed. The state of Virginia--in fact the entire South--reacted emotionally and generally [01:47:00] quite negatively to that decision, although in Arlington, because of the influx of a large number of people from areas where schools had already been desegregated, the County was much more closely divided than the rest of the state. There was a great deal of opposition to any form of desegregation in Arlington, but also a great willingness on the part of a great many to desegregate the schools, as you know. INTERVIEWER: And also to try to do the whole thing without any violence, which was occurring in-- NARRATOR: Virginia, being a genteel state wanted particularly to do it without any violence. The legislature of Virginia appointed the so-called Gray Commission, which was asked to recommend what should be done. The Gray Commission [01:48:00] recommended that there be a lot of local autonomy in the desegregation of schools, whether and when they should be desegregated, and provided also that there should be tuition grants for people who did not want to send their children to public schools if they were desegregated by local authorities, tuition grants to help pay the tuition in private schools. The legislature had not taken any action on this. But the Arlington School Board decided that it would desegregate the schools under the Gray Commission plan, and do it slowly, beginning [01:49:00] I think in the first grade. The moment the Arlington School Board announced that this was its intention, the rest of the state of Virginia reacted very violently. The legislature was in session. Representatives of our conservative groups in Arlington, led by Bob Peck, who I believe was the only conservative member of the School Board, went to Richmond and persuaded the legislature, in a very unusual act, to pass legislation abolishing the elected School Board, which it had previously authorized some years before. [01:50:00] This is again, a shocking example of state interference with local autonomy and the conduct of business. In the abolishment of the School Board, it did provide--and in fairness to them I should say it did not oust or seek to oust the existing School Board members--but that they should serve out their terms. Legislators in the state, in northern Virginia, were able to get a provision modifying for Arlington, and a certain few other areas I believe, the proviso that members of the School Board should be elected by a School Trustee Electorate Board, which in turn had been appointed by the Circuit Judge. And the legislature provided that in Arlington in the future, [01:51:00] the members of the School Board should be chosen by the members of the County Board. INTERVIEWER: Who were elected by the people. NARRATOR: Who were elected by the people. And I think that was a very substantial improvement, in fact real arguments can be made that this is a very good way to proceed in these matters. Well, as a result of that, the program for desegregation of Arlington public schools was stopped in its tracks. There was great debate throughout the state on the Gray Commission report. My wife and I participated, in many instances, in that debate, particularly Elizabeth who had been, as I say, on the Arlington School Board. We were supporters of gradual desegregation of the schools. [01:52:00] I recall one winter evening when Elizabeth was asked to go to the heart of Byrd country to speak against the Superintendent of Schools of the state of Virginia, who was going to speak in opposition to the Supreme Court decision and to wave the flag of resistance throughout the state on the subject of desegregation. And we drove up to Berryville in the snowy evening, and Elizabeth was politely but quite coldly received, not only by the weather but by the audience, when she said the schools must abide by the edict of the Supreme Court. [01:53:00] INTERVIEWER: What other areas did you go to? Did you find any sympathy anywhere? NARRATOR: I did not speak outside of Arlington, and I got some sympathetic response, as you know, sort of 50-50 response in Arlington. Elizabeth spoke in two or three other areas, in Fairfax and elsewhere. INTERVIEWER: But not in other parts of the state? NARRATOR: No, that was the only one outside of the northern Virginia area. Well, as you know, Mr. Byrd persuaded the legislature to adopt what they call the Virginia Massive Resistance [01:54:00] Laws. And I think it may be best if I just continue on that rather than get into another subject at the moment. INTERVIEWER: Yes, because this is certainly something that affected everyone up here. NARRATOR: The Massive Resistance Laws provided that if any school was ordered to be desegregated, that the title of that school would be immediately vested in the Governor of the state. That school would be closed. It would not be reopened unless and until every parent of every child in that school, said that he or she was willing to operate on a desegregated basis. [01:55:00] The schools in Prince Edward County were closed, or just decided to close. There was no great agitation to reopen them. Meanwhile, in the late 1950s, suit was filed in federal court by Mrs. Dorothy Hamm, I believe it is, who has also [01:56:00] given her interview here in the Oral History Project, to desegregate the, particularly the Stratford Junior High School, where her proteges were enrolled. INTERVIEWER: Or were going to be enrolled--or wanted to be enrolled. NARRATOR: Wanted to be enrolled. That case came up for hearing in the late '50s, before Judge Albert V. Bryan, District Judge in the United States District Court for the eastern district of Virginia in Alexandria. He heard it, or was hearing it, in early 1958. He rendered a decision [01:57:00] in September 1958, a rather strange decision, distinguishing between pupils whom he thought were qualified for Stratford Junior High School and pupils whom he thought were not qualified. But in any event, he ruled that under the Supreme Court edict, black children in Arlington were entitled to admission to Stratford Junior High School, and provided that they should be admitted in the beginning of the second semester, which would be the first semester in 1959. This was a decision which would have far-reaching impact. Would the schools of Arlington have to be closed? Elizabeth and I [01:58:00] called a group together in our home, and some twenty people came, to talk about forming a Save Our Schools Committee, based on the fact that we ought to be able to get substantial support from groups of people who might prefer segregated schools, but who if the chips were down, and they had to choose between no public schools and desegregated schools, would prefer to accept desegregation. I recall with real appreciation, that one of the people who came to that meeting was Mrs. Leon Buckholz, [01:59:00] who had been a very conservative member of the County Board. She was, in a sense, our token representative of that group, but was quite effective later in building up support. Another person there was Bill Lightsey, who became enormously effective in the Save Our Schools movement, and was later, having formed as a result of that meeting a so-called Save Our Schools group, was employed in a limited-pay basis, to see if he could develop support through the state. And we were able to do that. We formed a so-called Save Our Schools Committee, [02:00:00] we had another meeting in Arlington in one of the school buildings, I forget which, and 600 people came. And we got great support in Arlington for the idea of keeping the schools open regardless of what happened, and it sort of caught hold. Bill Lightsey went to Norfolk, got Norfolk's support, and formed a Save the Schools branch. In Richmond he also got it. And in various other areas of the state. And when the chips were down in the winter of 1959, this group had representatives--and claimed some 20,000 members throughout the state. I never did know whether it was 2,000 or 20,000-- [02:01:00] but, in any event, it became quite an effective lobbying force as I'll point out in a minute. Meanwhile, with the idea of the Arlington schools being closed in February of 1959, things were getting quite acute in the County. In October of 1958, I believe it was, a group of businessmen from Norfolk came to see me, and said the Norfolk schools had been closed, and they were closed under edict of the Massive Resistance Laws in September of 1958, and put 15,000 Norfolk children on the streets. This group came to me and said that they could not get, showing how agitated [02:02:00] the emotion of people was throughout the state, a reputable lawyer to represent them in an attempt to attack the Massive Resistance Laws in Norfolk. They had a committee of some 1,000 people who wanted the schools reopened and who were willing to litigate the matter, and would I act for them. I decided that to be true to myself, I had to get into the case, and I did so. I tried the case before a three-judge federal court in Norfolk, news of which was followed closely in Arlington, because it was going to be determinative. INTERVIEWER: When was that? NARRATOR: That case was heard, I think, in late October or early November [02:03:00] of 1958, before a three-judge federal court. I remember the big federal court there was jam-packed with people, and I had a local Norfolk attorney who was doing the paperwork and things like that for it, and we argued the case before this three-judge federal court. The court came out with an opinion, as you know, it was on January 19, 1959, which was General Lee's birthday incidentally, declaring the Massive Resistance Laws unconstitutional. About this time the General Assembly of Virginia was in session. Governor Almond, who was the defendant in my Norfolk case, [02:04:00] first made a very rebellious speech in the General Assembly, but later capitulated in a sense and said the state of Virginia should go ahead and proceed to desegregate its schools. That is, reopen its schools on a desegregated basis. The Charlottesville schools had been closed under the Massive Resistance Laws, and the Front Royal schools had been closed. The matter came on before the state Senate, on whether or not there should be an appropriation for the public schools--and I don't think this is generally realized--this is when our Save Our Schools Committee did enormous [02:05:00] lobbying on behalf of the school system. INTERVIEWER: Say something about the work of the Save Our Schools organization. NARRATOR: Well, the Save the Schools organization had sent representatives to Richmond on the idea of keeping the schools open. Despite the ruling in the Norfolk court outlawing the Massive Resistance Laws, there was real agitation in Virginia to close the whole public school system, believe it or not. And as I say, Bill Lightsey and his group did very valiant work in Richmond on the subject. The matter came on for hearing before the state Senate of Virginia as to whether or not there should be an appropriation to the public schools, and the vote in the Senate was very close. [02:06:00] Senator--state Senator--Byrd, who succeeded his father later in the United States Senate, led the opposition to any appropriation for public schools, and as I recall, the vote in the state Senate was 20-19 in favor of keeping the public school system open. INTERVIEWER: That's pretty close. NARRATOR: Pretty close. After that, I'll say this for the state of Virginia, it behaved responsibly and effectively and the schools were reopened without incident. I remember in Arlington Ralph Kaul and Dave Krupsaw and other County Board members got me to meet with them on the subject of what [02:07:00] they should do about the order to reopen the Stratford Junior High School on a desegregated basis in January or February, I guess it was early February in 1959. The County Board did not know whether there was going to be any violence or not, and they had police--plainclothes police--all around, to see that the schools were properly reopened. And they were reopened without incident. Virginians and Arlingtonians could be proud of the way they were reopened. We have some reports here in the Oral History Program on it, but as Theda Henley has said, and Ms. Hamm has said, and others, the youngsters were received well. And as I said, I think we can be proud of the way Arlington acted [02:08:00] in the desegregation of the Arlington public schools. [omitted] [02:09:11] There's one other comment I might make on segregation, where I particularly participated. That was in connection with the segregated seating laws in Virginia. Virginia had an archaic law, like most other southern states, that whites and blacks could not sit together in public gatherings. It's hard for us to understand that now. But it was accepted, and I think generally approved by the people of Virginia in those days. [02:10:00] Theda Henley, head of the League of Women Voters in Arlington, came to me and asked if I wouldn't act in an attempt to knock that segregated seating law out in the state of Virginia. I believe it had already been knocked out by a federal court in North Carolina. I said I would. She has previously told us in this Oral History Project of her efforts to get, and did get, some black person to come to a meeting of the League of Women Voters in Arlington. Faith Vissell, a white person, sat next to the black visitor and Faith Vissell was arrested. [02:11:21] Theda I represented her, and argued the case before Judge Emory Hosmer. Judge Hosmer decided, greatly to my surprise, against me. I say to my surprise, because the court in North Carolina had decided the other way and knocked the law out. But he decided that he wasn't going to be the judge to knock out the segregated seating law. I appealed that case to the Supreme Court of Virginia, and had a very unhappy experience, in that I won the case but lost it. [02:12:00] Theda This might be a matter of just a little interest. I argued the case before the court, and one of the judges said, "I'd like to see the warrant in this case." And the arrest warrant was brought before the court, and the justice looked at it and said--I'm sure this had been set up in advance--"I don't see any allegation in this warrant that Faith Vissell was white. How do we know that she wasn't black and sitting by a black person?" I said, "Your Honor, you got no argument on that, of course she was white." "The warrant doesn't say so." And the court reversed of Judge Hosmer, let her off on the grounds [02:13:00] Theda that it didn't show that she had violated the segregation law. So as I say, we won the case but lost it. Shortly after that, another case was brought before Judge McCarthy, and Judge McCarthy acted responsibly and held the segregated seating law to be unconstitutional. It was not appealed. Incidentally, I want to make a couple of remarks about Judge McCarthy. When he decided the Dean case against us, and had acted as he had on appointments in a political manner, he and I became real political enemies. [02:14:00] Theda I came, however, to have a great respect for him. I reluctantly reached the conclusion that, in judicial matters, including the Dean case, he had decided as he thought best--I mean he thought the law applied--and then proceeded in a political manner in matters that he considered to be political. He and I differed but became very good friends, particularly in relation to the formation of St. Peter's Episcopal Church, in which we both actively participated. And while we differed substantially on economic and political matters, we respected each other in our different political views. I want to pay that homage to him now. [02:15:00] Theda You want me to now talk about the litigation I was involved in? INTERVIEWER: The One Man One Vote litigation, yes. NARRATOR: I think the next case, and a very important case, where I was asked to act for Arlington residents, was the so-called One Man One Vote cases. As a result of the 1960 census, Arlington had practically doubled in population during the '40s and again in the '50s, and it was grossly under-represented in the Virginia General Assembly. The Virginia General Assembly, like most state legislatures, where it came to reapportioning their legislatures every ten years, [02:16:00] Theda did not want to reapportion their own members out of office. If Arlington were granted additional legislators, it would mean somebody else would lose, because the law provided that there would be only 100 Delegates in the General Assembly, and 40 members of the state Senate. Arlington became, as a result of the 1961 reapportionment by the Virginia General Assembly, underrepresented on the basis of about 3-to-1. They only had one-third of the number of Delegates and Senators to whom they would be entitled under a strict population basis. It gave their representatives [02:17:00] Theda very little clout in the state, and we were still subjected to, I call it discrimination, in that very little of our proposed legislation could ever get adopted. Harrison Mann, with whom I had many disagreements, but who was a very earnest legislator in northern Virginia-- INTERVIEWER: In Arlington. NARRATOR: In Arlington. --and Kathryn Stone in Arlington, and John Webb, a Delegate from Fairfax, came to me and said they would like to attack the [02:18:00] Theda constitutionality of the reapportionment by the state of Virginia. The Supreme Court of the United States, in the so-called Baker case a year or so before, had held that federal courts had jurisdiction to see that state legislatures were properly apportioned. That was a monumental case in itself, but no suits had been filed--oh, I think one had been filed, but no cases had been tried under that ruling, as to whether or not legislatures had acted improperly in reapportionment. So we filed this suit called Mann against Davis. Harris Mann was the first person named, Davis was the head of the Election Board in the-- [02:19:00] Theda INTERVIEWER: Do you remember what his first name was? NARRATOR: Levin Nock Davis. This case came on to be heard before a three-judge federal court in Alexandria. One of them was Judge Albert Bryan, who was then Circuit Judge. Another one was Judge Lewis, who was then a District Judge. The third one, oh I haven't got it here, was a judge from Norfolk. We argued that case, we heard testimony in the case, and the three-judge court finally unanimously came out holding that Virginia's reapportionment had violated [02:20:00] Theda the Constitution. Meanwhile, other cases had been filed in New York, Delaware and Alabama. Some of them had been decided one way and some the other. But they were all appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Court heard them all together. We argued the case before the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Supreme Court did something I don't think it had ever done before, or since. It took three days to hear arguments on those cases, because they did consider them to be enormously important from the point of view of the state government. And finally came out in 1962 or '63, declaring that the [02:21:00] apportionment by the state of Virginia, and the other states that were involved, were unconstitutional, and directing that these state legislatures reapportion their membership. And if they did not reapportion them properly, the federal courts could have authority to make reapportionments. They remanded the case to Judge Bryan and the others in federal court. Our Judge Bryan gave the General Assembly notice that it would have to reapportion properly or he would do it. The legislature had a special meeting, a special session, and did reapportion the General Assembly, giving to Arlington three delegates, instead of the one which it previously had, [02:22:00] and giving it a special Senator to itself, which was something it had not previously had. And thus, in Fairfax and in Arlington and in Alexandria, the same procedure having been followed in Fairfax and in Alexandria, resulted in entirely changing the power of northern Virginian legislators. The same thing applied in Norfolk, because there was a shortage of representation in the Norfolk area. Over the years, northern Virginian legislators have doubled and tripled in number as a result of this case. [omitted] [02:23:00] INTERVIEWER: [02:23:34] That perhaps handles that particular suit, and you certainly can feel self-congratulatory for your part in that. I think that's a very important area? NARRATOR: Well, I do feel proud on that. And I think I might say, if you don't mind that in none of these cases, except the Norfolk case, to which I referred, [02:24:00] did I get any fee for my services. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? Well, that's something that the community and the state and the public can certainly be thankful for. NARRATOR: I was practicing law and making a very good living in Washington and had been active in bar associations there and felt I could afford to do it, and it was something I wanted to do. [02:24:36] END OF TAPE TWO SIDE TWO Narrator’s addition: Let me turn to some of my other activities during this general period. I served at the request of the County Board on several commissions which it had appointed including a fiscal affairs commission, a "charter" commission (to recommend whether or not Arlington should become a city) and continued to be generally active in local political affairs. [02:24:37] BEGIN TAPE THREE SIDE ONE NARRATOR: I also was president of the Community Chest in Arlington one year. The Community Chest was the forerunner of the United Way, and I enjoyed that work very much. INTERVIEWER: Did you get involved in any youth activities with your children? [02:25:00] NARRATOR: No, not particularly. My wife was involved in the Cub Scouts, but I had not been involved in youth activities. I think that covers, generally speaking, the specific activities in which-- INTERVIEWER: Why don't you tell us a little bit about your own personal career? You were a lawyer, an attorney. What firm, firms were you with, and what sort of-- NARRATOR: Well I became a member in the early '30s, of the law firm of Douglas Obear and Douglas. It was a distinguished firm and Mr. Douglas and Mr. Obear were both so Carolinian, so it was a southern firm. We had an excellent practice and I was able to [02:26:00] make a good living and this enabled me really to do the things that, to me, make the practice of law worthwhile, that is engaging in litigation or service for the community. Such as the litigations in which I worked for Arlington. In 1962, I believe, I was elected president of the District of Columbia Bar, and having served my year there, the Bar elected me as one of its delegates to the House of Delegates of the American Bar Association, in which I served for a number of years. And the House of Delegates of the American Bar Association chose me as a member of the [02:27:00] National Board of Governors of the American Bar Association, a group of some twenty lawyers that was really the governing body for the lawyers of the entire nation. That was very interesting and it was a very rich professional experience. INTERVIEWER: Now, at that time were there any black members of the ABA? NARRATOR: Oh, yes. And there had previously been black members of the District of Columbia Bar Association. There was a time while I was there that there were not, and some of us fought to have them admitted. And they were admitted, I believe, in the early 1950s. INTERVIEWER: What sort of litigation were you involved in, in your firm or with you personally? NARRATOR: We were engaged in general business practice of law, our [02:28:00] litigation involving wills, a little bit of personal injury litigation, very little from my point of view. Trusts, titles, titles to property, contract disputes, things of that type. INTERVIEWER: Patent law? NARRATOR: No, we were not patent specialists. I did have the honor of being chosen as a Fellow of the American College of Trial Lawyers, which is a rather distinguished group, limited to the maximum of one percent of the practicing Bar, and I do treasure that. INTERVIEWER: It sounds like a very elitist group. NARRATOR: It is sort of an elitist group. And I do treasure that. But the practice of law has been interesting and I've been very fortunate in the type of career [02:29:00] that I've been able to have. INTERVIEWER: Now, I first saw you when I started attending St. Mary's Episcopal Church in Arlington. You were always being an usher or perhaps you were on the Vestry at that time, I don't know, but I know you've been quite active in church affairs over the years. Could you elaborate on that a bit? NARRATOR: Well, our family has been active, and was active, and is still active in the Episcopal Church in Arlington. And for many years we were members of St. Mary's Episcopal Church. Judge McCarthy, to whom I have previously referred, was also a member of that church. As I say, he and I had become very good personal friends. We were no longer members of that church. [02:30:00] We were members of a new church which we participated in forming, St. Peter's Episcopal Church. INTERVIEWER: Would you tell us how that developed? NARRATOR: Well, in the late 1950s we acquired a new rector by the name of John Reinheimer. Mr. Reinheimer was a good preacher, he turned out to be an extremely high Church man. The Episcopal Church is often referred to as either high Church or low Church. INTERVIEWER: Depending upon the ritual. NARRATOR: Depending upon the ritual, and the similarity to the [02:31:00] Roman Catholic service. Reinheimer was a dictator, a complete dictator as far as the operations of the church were concerned. He also had a serious alcohol problem. Under his administration, things went from bad to worse as far as the, let's call it, ecclegiality of the church members was concerned. And they were quite bitterly divided over [02:32:00] a number of things. Judge McCarthy, a man named Allen Adams, and I had been delegated, or requested by the various substantialist segment of the congregation, to go and talk with Reinheimer on some of the problems. We were all three on the Vestry and each of us had been Senior Warden at one time or another in the Vestry. I remember going to see Mr. Reinheimer on that occasion, and we were chatting. I felt that Reinheimer was [02:33:00] almost impossible in his dominating and dictatorial attitude with how the church should be run. And I remember in the middle of the conversation he turned to Judge McCarthy and said, "Judge, I think you are a fraud." There was a dead silence. And all three of us got up and walked out. Judge McCarthy and I had many disagreements, but he was as honest a man as you can find in the world, and nobody could ever consider him a fraud. Well, this was a sort of culmination. [02:34:00] Elizabeth and I, living in this big house, in which we lived at 2912 Glebe Road, across from Marymount College, a house which has since been torn down, as you know, we decided that we just could not stay in St. Mary's any longer. And yet we felt that we owed it to our many friends there to see how they would feel about the general situation. We called an informal meeting. I think there were some twenty friends that we knew had been concerned about the situation there, and met in our house. Instead of twenty showing up, there were about fifty. They were piled all over the steps and everywhere else [02:35:00] inside our house, and it was a very emotional and prayerful session. It was one of the types of meetings you would never forget. I personally thought we would just move to one of the other churches, probably St. Andrew's in Arlington. But as the discussion went on the group said we must stay together and have a new church of our own. And that's what they decided. So all of us left St. Mary's. We started with a group which [02:36:00] grew very, very rapidly, holding church services informally in a school, I believe it was called Stafford School. Well we started holding these informal services in Madison School, near Old Glebe Road, not far from Walker's Chapel Church. And then we petitioned to the Diocese of Virginia for recognition as a mission church. After some problems, we were admitted as a new church, and thus formed St. Peter's. This is not a type of experience a church member enjoys. [02:37:00] But in this instance, St. Peter's is thriving and all of us were sure we did the right thing under the circumstances. [omitted] INTERVIEWER: [02:38:28] The other thing that I would like to get your comments on, I don't know if you were directly involved in it, but is the enormous new development in Arlington, the whole change of the community from a series of little separate village communities, so to speak, to the high rises and the newcomers who've come into Arlington. There's been such a change with Metro's development and other development, and if you'd like to [02:39:00] comment on that, perhaps. NARRATOR: Yes, let me say that when Elizabeth and I were married in 1936, Arlington was really a series of disparate communities, each with a separate post office. Not one Arlington post office. There was a Washington post office, a Cherrydale post office, we had a Clarendon post office, I think we had a Glencarlyn post office, we had an East Falls Church post office, all in Arlington. All these little communities you might say were joined together by small farms, and it was hard to consider it as a single county, and yet that's what it was. And through the genius I think of Hugh Reid, a young lawyer who was a member of the House of Delegates [02:40:00] in the 1920s, the Virginia Legislature had adopted this County Manager Plan of government, a unique and enormously effective form of government in 1930. And Arlington had become, I think, the second community in the nation to have the County Manager or City Manager form of government. The County had grown substantially in the 1930s, but not overwhelmingly. However, when I got on the County Board in 1940, it was burgeoning so fast that the County government simply could not keep up with the services that were demanded. In 1940 to 1950 it doubled in population, and in 1950 to 1960 [02:41:00] it practically doubled again. So during that time, it was really an overwhelming daily change and overwhelming daily stress in County affairs and continual political conflict between the old residents and the new. The new ones demanding more services and being willing to pay more taxes than the old ones were accustomed to or wanted. And so we found the stress existing about which I've already testified. Through it all, I think the County had good government in the sense that it was responsive to the will of the people, [02:42:00] and I don't think, from the beginning to this date, there's been any real political financial scandal under the County Manager form of government. There were indictments of the County Treasurer and one other official in the early 1930s, but they were for acts committed before the County Manager form of government came in. Under this special form of government that we have, with a small county board elected at large, highly visible, one elected each year (with two every fourth year) inherently makes them responsive to the people who can kick them out almost overnight. The County Manager himself is removed from any real partisan politics. The County staff is specifically removed from politics. All of this has resulted in a very unusual public arrangement. And you couple that with the fact that Arlington has been almost the best educated community in the country. INTERVIEWER: I don't know. Cambridge or Princeton might question that. NARRATOR: Well, they might, but I think the average education level in Arlington, until the recent influx of immigrants, included at least one year of college, very high. You see, Arlington has been a home for the higher level of federal employees and the higher level of the military, and as such has had during this period from the Second World War on, people who could assist in government in various commissions and committees, and who demanded the best in government. I think, forexample--I get euphoric sometimes on the subject--My wife, as you know, has worked for WETA for almost thirty years. For the last twenty years WETA, its television studios have been on Four Mile Run in south Arlington. We live presently in Sycamore Heights, which is on Tuckahoe Street, between Washington Boulevard and Lee Highway. Elizabeth has often said to me that she enjoys so much her drive down George Mason Drive to Four Mile Run and to the WETA studios because she says she passes seven different parks in this relatively short distance. Arlington is remarkably full of parks, both large and small. It has many mini-parks. It has a County Board highly sensitive to the needs of the type of people that are in Arlington. There are many social services for the elderly, Arlington having a large elderly population. In the last few years Arlington has had an enormous influx of, let's call it immigrants for want of a better word. INTERVIEWER: Foreign born. NARRATOR: Foreign born. I think at Key School, Key Elementary School in Arlington, if my information is correct, there are almost 50 different languages--not languages, but dialects at least, that are involved in the student body. At Wakefield Senior High School, now, I've been told that the student body can be roughly divided into four almost equal groups. One, native white; second, black; the third, the Asians; and the fourth, the Spanish-speaking Central Americans. Arlington is really being transformed that way. The control of Arlington--the voting control of Arlington and the public participation or civic participation of Arlington residents--has still been largely confined, almost entirely confined, to the white and black populations, with some interjection of Asians, but very little interjection in civic life of Spanish born. The County Board, I think, is proceeding extremely wisely and with extreme sensitivity, in attempting to meet these issues. And the School Board is doing the same. They are difficult issues. The situation in Arlington will undoubtedly be transformed over the next generation. But I can only speak well of the Arlington in which we live, and I think it's a great community. Recently, I attended an annual meeting of Arlington volunteers that the County government puts on, a sort of thank-you meeting for the work that the many volunteers in Arlington--I say "volunteers," I mean civic volunteers, volunteers helping the Arlington County government. Many volunteers are involved. And it is astonishing how much volunteer work there is for the Arlington County government. I think it was estimated, at the meeting this past week, that there were several million dollars' worth of time being given by volunteers in the Arlington government. If the County government doesn't do right at any particular time, or the County Board, it will be swamped at the next meeting--and the next election--with people complaining. So we almost have to have good government. And we do have a good government, and I'm really very proud of it. I think I've really said all I want to say at this interview. I appreciate your giving it to me, and I'm really proud to be an Arlingtonian. INTERVIEWER: Well I think Arlington's proud to have you as a citizen. You did a short little interview several years ago, and we're very grateful that you have taken the time to, three different mornings, explore in much greater depth the various activities you've been involved in. And I know that for the historian in the future, this is going to be a rich resource in many different fields. And we are certainly grateful to you, Ed. Thank you very much. INCLUDED IN THE FILE ARE THE FOLLOWING EXHIBITS: Benjamin M. Smith, et al. v. Lyman M. Kelley, et al. 162 VA 645. June 19, 1934. Syllabus, Statement and Opinion. Harry W. Porter, et al. v. Barnard O. Joy, et al. 188 VA 801. January 10, 1949. Syllabus and Opinion. Alan L. Dean, etc., et al. v. Rocco Paolicelli, et al. 194 VA 219. September 10, 1952. Syllabus, Statement and Opinion. Barnard Joy, E.R. Draheim and Warren Cox v. John Locke Green. 194 VA 1003. June 8, 1953. Statement and Opinion. Levin Nock Davis, Secretary, State Board of Elections, et al., Appellants, v. Harrison Mann, et al. 377 US 678, 12 L ed 2d 609, 84 S Ct 1453. Argued November 14 and 18, 1963. Decided June 15, 1964. Summary, Headnotes and Opinion. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, April 12, 1991, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on April 12, 1991. Interviewer is Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edmund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12-Apr-91 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19910412.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cas Cocklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edmund Campbell Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2:52:31 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 183kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, April 12, 1991 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on April 12, 1991. Interviewer is Cas Cocklin. Item contains both typed transcript and audio recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edmund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12-Apr-91 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19910412 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c3ee1eb021669e2fdf6ec5f375fbf821.mp3 f5adc8334b8e164ddfbeaa7aae671be5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, May 26, 1975, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on May 26, 1975. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edmund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26-May-75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19750526.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ef5d094b3b96963c294e732c5247871a.pdf b36b60a8f27c325b8770a2959fb5b13b PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Libray-Zonta Oral History Project NARRATOR: Mr. Edmund Campbell INTERVIEWER: Theda Nichols DATE: May 26, 1975 INTERVIEWER: [00:00:03] This is Theda Nichols, talking with Mr. Edmund Campbell at his home in Arlington, on Glebe Road. He will explain something about his own affairs as well as the part that he took in Arlington’s affairs. NARRATOR: Mrs. Nichols is talking to me at my home, on 2912 North Glebe Road. This home was built by Admiral Rixey, who was (I believe) a confidant and someone who had been engaged in medical and other matters by President Wilson. The home was built [00:01:00] just before the First World War—as a home for his niece. Admiral Rixey built the main home, the main building at Marymount College, and owned at that time all of the property in this area, including what is now Saint Mary’s Episcopal Church, which he arranged to construct not far from our home between Old Dominion Drive and Glebe Road. Admiral Rixey’s home, which is now the center of Marymount College, is a beautiful home and was his residence; and the home in which we live has been a very substantial building all these years. [00:02:00] I was born a long time ago, in 1899, in Lexington, Virginia, on the campus of Washington-Lee University. My father was dean of the university. His father was a professor of chemistry at Washington College, as it was then known, just prior to the Civil War; after the Civil War (or, as we called it, the War Between the States), he was a next-door neighbor of General Robert E. Lee. My grandfather’s family and the Lee family were close friends. We have in our library a [00:03:00] letter from General Lee to my grandfather, which he wrote in 1870, just a few months before his death. He wrote it from Hot Springs, and my grandfather had been named as the first Superintendent of Schools of Rockbridge County, Virginia. My grandfather—as I said, he was a professor of chemistry at Washington College—wrote General Lee to find out whether or not this would be an acceptable employment for him to take as a supplement to his college duties. General Lee wrote him that it would be quite satisfactory to him, if it did not interfere with his college duties, and added this phrase, which may have some pertinence to our present time. He says, [00:04:00] “I fear the compensation is so small that it will not remunerate you for your time and trouble. And, as to the advantages, it will altogether depend upon the favor that the school system will receive from the people.” And, of course, that has been the situation with respect to the public school system ever since. A little aside in connection with this letter: He states: “If you want the appointment, I hope you will get it. Remember me to Mrs. Campbell. I am very much obliged to you for your care of my family and your attention to my sick cow”--C-O-W, cow --“I am glad that she is out of her misery. I expect to be in Staunton on the 30th and then return to Lexington. Most truly, R. E. Lee.” We also have a letter from a close friend of my [00:05:00] grandfather, in Lexington, who was Stonewall Jackson. INTERVIEWER: Do tell us about it. NARRATOR: This was written on June 7, 1858, when Mr. Jackson, as he was then called—or I guess he may have been Colonel Jackson, of the Virginia Military Institute—was a Professor of Mathematics there. Colonel Jackson was a very religious man and was superintendent of what was then known as the “colored” Presbyterian Sunday School [in Lexington, Virginia]. He was going to be away from the school for one week, and he wrote my grandfather a detailed letter, which I don’t think you would be interested in hearing at this stage, [00:06:00] but giving him in four pages specific and detailed instructions as to how he thinks the colored Presbyterian Sabbath School should be conducted during that particular week—giving detailed ideas as to the teaching of the catechism, the Bible, and the learning of verses from the Scriptures. In one part of this letter he refers to the fact that records should be made of the manner in which the lesson has been prepared; conduct in school; the lates, absences, and so forth. “From these circulars”— [00:07:00] I am reading from the letter— “I make a monthly entry in the record book which contains not only the number of lates and absences but also the names of the teachers, scholars, owners, persons with whom the scholars reside.” INTERVIEWER: Did you say that was a “colored” school? NARRATOR: A school for the small Negroes in Lexington, Virginia, which was a rigid Presbyterian community, as is evidenced really by the fact that Stonewall Jackson, when he became a leader in the Southern army—you know, at first would not fight a battle on [00:08:00] Sunday [laughter] and was a very rigid Biblical disciplinarian during the entire time of his generalship. Well, so much for that. I myself came to Arlington in about 1925, though I had visited Arlington rather frequently for two years prior to that time. I graduated in law at Washington and Lee in 1922, having gotten a master’s degree in economics at Harvard and having obtained a bachelor’s degree at Washington and Lee prior to that time and having served for a short period (of six weeks) [00:09:00] in the United States Army in the First World War. At this time when I was in the Army, I was in the Field Artillery at Camp Zachary Taylor’s trying to learn to be an officer in the Horse Artillery. They were short of horses, and the only training we could have was on horses made out of wooden barrels with legs descending from the barrels; I think the chief thing we learned was how to mount a barrel. But the war ended, and I was only in the Army for six weeks. INTERVIEWER: Then you came to Arlington to practice law? NARRATOR: Then I came to Washington to practice law—well, I came to Washington to [00:10:00] engage, as I thought, in applied economics and was practicing a little law on the side. At that time one of the secretaries in the office of my employer was a young lady named Esther Butterworth, of East Falls Church, the portion of East Falls Church which was still in Arlington County. She was a lovely woman who subsequently became my wife and who died in 1934. I used to visit her in East Falls Church, living as I did then in a room in Georgetown, which incidentally [00:11:00] was in the home right next to Dean Acheson, the former Secretary of State, with whom I played tennis on many occasions and who was a good friend. Well, in any event, in visiting Esther, I used to take a Washington and Old Dominion Railroad train, which started at 12th and Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest, and which went over the general area of what is now Route 66—that is, the right of way for the proposed Route 66… No, I am wrong about that. I believe that was the [00:12:00] other railroad that primarily went over that. In any event, we went up to East Falls Church; it took about an hour on the train to get there. I found it a well worthwhile experience. I didn’t mind the hour. Sometimes it was hard to get a train back, because it was a little late in the evening. This was the railroad that went all the way to Leesburg and Bluemont at that time and had a station in East Falls Church. There was in addition to that—there was the railroad which I have just mentioned was used in part now for the roadbed of Route 66. INTERVIEWER: On Route 66; yes, that is what I thought. [00:13:00] NARRATOR: The nearest portion to Rosslyn was the roadbed of the Washington, Virginia, Maryland Railroad. INTERVIEWER: Where did you get on then, when you were leaving Georgetown? NARRATOR: No, I did not catch the train in Georgetown. I caught it at 12th and Pennsylvania Avenue. It would come over the 14th Street Bridge. There was this other railroad, which had a station at that time approximately where the Key Bridge Marriott hotel is now and which went up, roughly speaking, parallel to the Lee Highway for a good portion of the area and then out Old Dominion Drive—out the area which has been taken [00:14:00] as a roadbed for Old Dominion Drive—which, incidentally, is just about a hundred yards in the rear of our residence. INTERVIEWER: Then you moved to Arlington, after that, I suppose? NARRATOR: When we were married, we moved to Arlington. I practiced law in Washington with an office in Arlington and have practiced ever since. I don’t want to emphasize too much personal factors—but you may be interested in the fact that I did become president of the Bar Association of the District of Colombia and that I am now a member of the twenty-man Board of Governors of the American Bar Association, representing the District of Colombia, Maryland, and Virginia. [00:15:00] INTERVIEWER: I think it would be very interesting to hear about your experience in government. That was your big contribution to the affairs of Arlington. NARRATOR: Well, in the early 1930’s Arlington was in the beginning throes of a controversy which has existed from that day to this, and that is the extent to which apartment developments should be permitted to proceed and the extent to which single-family homes should be maintained. I was on the side of the single-family home. [Mutual laughter] The County Board at that time, however, was controlled by what I and my semi-liberal friends considered [00:16:00] to be a rather reactionary group—and I don’t mean by that to imply anything other than their point of view—headed by the late Colonel Charles Jesse, the founder of the firm of Jesse, Phillips, Kling, and Kendrick. He was a member of the Board, having been appointed. He and one other member, Colonel Christopher Garnett, had been appointed by Judge Walter T. McCarthy—when he had first become a judge—as members of the County Board to fill vacancies. Some of my friends and I [00:17:00] concocted an idea that the appointment by Judge McCarthy was invalid. We found a statute in the State of Virginia which said that counties having a county-manager form of government, such as Arlington, would be entitled to all of the privileges of cities and towns. Under this Code with respect to cities and towns, vacancies in the governing Board were not filled by the presiding judge of the circuit, but were instead filled by the governing Board itself. So some of my friends and I had arranged with the then-Chairman of the County Board, [00:18:00] who was named Lyman Kelly, who is still living, to pull what might be considered a coup d’etat with respect to the County Board. Mr. May, who was my colleague, and I were to appear in the County Board sessions, which were then being held in the main courtroom in Arlington. Mr. Kelly, chairman of the Board, was to announce that in his opinion the seats of Mr. Jesse and his colleague were invalid, because they were invalidly occupied because they had been appointed by the judge, whereas under the statute, Arlington—having a county-manager system of government—had been entitled to have those [positions] filled by the County Board itself. [00:19:00] Mr. Garnett got wind of this and did not appear at the meeting, but the meeting occurred and Mr. Kelly made his announcement. And he said, “The floor is open to nominations.” And another member of the Board—I believe it was Mrs. Magruder—nominated me and Mr. May to fill those vacancies. And Mr. Kelly said, “I happen just to see them in the room at this moment. Will they come and take their seats and take the oath?” [Laughter] Which we proceeded to do, and we proceeded then to operate as members of the County Board for a period of several months. At that time, Lawrence Douglas, who is still living and active and a very fine lawyer, [00:20:00] was Commonwealth’s Attorney and a member of what I considered to be the reactionary element. Even though Lawrence is my good friend, Lawrence proceeded to file a petition for a writ of mandamus in the Supreme Court of Appeals of Virginia, asking that our compensation be withheld and that payments be made to the old members of the County Board—Mr. Jesse and Colonel Garnett—in order to raise the question as to whether or not we had been validly appointed. We retained as our counsel Mr. Albert Bryan of Alexandria, [00:21:00] who later became a district judge in Alexandria and is now a judge on the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, for the Fourth Circuit. The case was argued in the Supreme Court of Appeals, and we lost. We had one dissenting vote. We lost, and that coup d’etat was not successful, and the apartment dweller favorites were reinstalled on the County Board. [See Appendix—Note 1.] INTERVIEWER: That was pretty sporting. NARRATOR: I was then appointed chairman of the Public Utilities Commission of Arlington, which was engaged in [00:22:00] attacking a proposed increase in gas rates, and because of this became fairly well-known in Arlington and Arlington—shall I say—“liberal” democratic circles; and decided to run for the County Board as an elected member—oh, about 1940. Meanwhile, my first wife, Esther, died in 1934; and in 1936 I married Elizabeth Pfohl, who was then dean of Mary Baldwin College and with whom I have been happily married ever since, and who herself has served in many capacities in Arlington public life. When I ran for County Board in 1940 [00:23:00] as a Democrat, and in a Democratic primary, I obtained the blessing (strangely enough) of Mr. Harry Green, then Commissioner of Revenue, the father of H. Bruce Green, who has been for so many years Clerk of the Circuit Court of Arlington. I say this because I thought Mr. Green was much more conservative than I, but I felt and I always have felt that he was a man of principle and that he was willing to support me. I was nominated and elected and served for seven years as a member of the [00:24:00] Arlington County Board. At that time, I hope I sponsored a good deal of progressive development in the County. INTERVIEWER: What were the issues, Mr. Campbell, in those years? NARRATOR: Well, the primary issues during the entire period, of course, remained (as they have often remained) two matters: one is zoning and the other is schools. We sponsored the early development of schools and sponsored restrictive zoning amendments and the first Master Plan. INTERVIEWER: And there was that period of the elected school board, the Moncure Period. NARRATOR: I was coming to that. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember that? NARRATOR: Strangely enough, I was defeated and I did not really want to run in 1947. [00:25:00] I had served seven years: one three-year term and one four-year term…In a close vote by a man named Dan Dugan in the early stages of the nonpartisan movement…At that time my wife (Elizabeth) became interested—as we both have been—in the development of the Arlington schools. The school board was then appointed under a rather archaic statute by the school-board electoral board, which in turn had been named by the presiding judge of the Circuit Court, and as a result of that, [00:26:00] were pretty far removed from the people. My good friend, and he is my close friend, Judge McCarthy, Walter McCarthy, I considered to be in the highly conservative element; and he was admittedly somewhat conservative. We have since become [laughing] much closer together in our views and are close friends. But he had appointed a rather highly conservative school electoral board, which in turn had appointed (and was appointing) very reactionary school-board members. The schools were being administered by Superintendent Kemp, whose chief idea [00:27:00] seemed to be to keep the cost of the schools down, and who made the rather astonishing statement to my wife at one time that, fortunately, we don’t have any problems with handicapped or unusually deficient children in Arlington; all our children are normal, and we therefore don’t need any special classes. Well, at the time we both (Elizabeth and I) got involved in a movement for the reform of the schools, and Maynard Magruder, who was a Democratic member of the House of Delegates at that time, introduced a bill providing for an elective school board. [00:28:00] Strangely enough, that carried in the Legislature. The question then came: How would you elect a school board? Well, some of us go together and formed the idea of a nonpartisan mass meeting to elect (or to nominate) school-board members, and we held that meeting—I was chairman of it—and there were several hundred people present on a very hot night at what was then the Lyon Park Community Center. She [Mrs. Campbell] was one of those nominated [00:29:00] as the first elected school-board member. The others were Dr. Barnard Joy, who has served long and well in Arlington public life; Mr. Colin McPherson, who later became Treasurer of Arlington County and served for many years (he was a builder); Mr. Glenn Stahl, who had been active with the Civil Service Commission; Mr. Curtis Tuthill, who was a professor at George Washington University. These five campaigned ardently against existing school board members, who also ran for election and who had been nominated by the school electoral board, which had been appointed by the Circuit Court, as I have already stated, and won [00:30:00] by a handsome majority of almost 2-to-1. I think that election occurred approximately [in] ’47; it may have been ’48. They also got through a substantial bond issue for the development of the schools. The schools that were constructed by that first bond issue included Stratford Junior High School, improvement of Washington and Lee, and several other schools (my wife would have much better [00:31:00] information on that than I). It was interesting to note that immediately after the election of our school board members [00:31:14] END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE [00:31:15] START OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO are filed by the old school board members against the new school board members. And I have to back up just a minute. After the nonpartisan elections which resulted in my defeat in 1947 the “nonpartisan” Board members approached me and actually asked me to affiliate with them, which I did not do, but I did represent two of them: Robert Cox and Alan Dean, [00:32:00] both of whom were government employees and who were members of the Arlington County Board, in a suit which had been brought attacking their right to sit on the County Board at the same time that they were government employees. That suit was heard, again by Judge McCarthy, and Lawrence Douglas and I, believe it or not, were on the same side at the time, defending the act. Judge McCarthy claimed that under the Virginia statute, government employees could not serve on the Arlington County Board. And that has been the law from that day to this. That case was appealed to the Supreme Court of Appeals, and Judge McCarthy’s decision was affirmed. [00:33:00] We lost that case. [See Appendix—Note 2.] Well, after my wife and the others had been named to the Arlington school board, this suit was filed by the old members of the school board, similarly attacking the right to an elected school board, under the then Virginia statute and constitution. We had great fear as far as the validity of that statute is concerned. The statute came also “on” before Judge McCarthy. Judge McCarthy decided that the new school board was properly elected. I bless him for that. [00:34:00] His decision was also affirmed by the Supreme Court of Appeals of Virginia, but for a period of a year or more we did not know whether the new school board was actively able to operate or not. The new school board, when it did get under way, really revolutionized the school system of Arlington and brought it into national repute as one of the leading school systems of the nation. Time magazine, which was then engaged in a television (periodical television) documentary called “March of Time,” [00:35:00] produced a documentary on the Arlington schools as being one of the first in the nation [to have an] elected school board; that documentary went all over the nation. The Saturday Evening Post—being then a weekly magazine of very great circulation—had an article about the Arlington school board and the Arlington school system as being one of the leading school systems in the nation. There was a period there when, in the early days of this (I call it) “school revolution,” that the people were willing to vote almost any bond issues that were necessary for school construction and [00:36:00] willing to pay almost any price to have their children properly educated. Now, you asked me to comment upon a statement which I made when I said, “Strangely enough, Mr. Magruder made this motion for the elected school board; and it was…” INTERVIEWER: “Strangely enough, it was passed,” you said. And I thought that must mean something. NARRATOR: Mr. Magruder was a Democratic delegate from Arlington, and I considered him on the rather conservative side. He and I ran for Congress together—against each other-in 1952. But he was induced to do this, and, strangely enough, as I say, the conservative Virginia legislature [00:37:00] let it go through. I think it just “slipped” through, to tell you the truth, because in 1955, after the Supreme Court decision in the Brown case outlawing segregation, we ran into a great deal of trouble. The Virginia legislature passed what is known as the “Gray Plan,” which provided in effect that each county could determine for itself the extent to which it would or would not comply with the desegregation orders of the Supreme Court. The Arlington elected school board proceeded to decide that it would implement [00:38:00] the desegregation decision and announced that schools would be desegregated as of such-and-such a date—I forget the date—whereupon a number of conservative Arlingtonians, including my friend Bob Peck—and he is my friend—he and I just differ on political matters—descended upon Richmond (the legislature being then in session). They persuaded the Virginia legislature to pass an act abolishing all elected school boards in the State of Virginia. [00:39:00] Fortunately, that law did not provide for the termination of the terms of the existing school board prior to the expiration of their terms, but it did provide that in future years the school board would be appointed by the Arlington County Board instead of by the school electoral board. That in itself was a substantial improvement. In fact, I must say that there is something to be said for having school boards appointed by the governing body, particularly when the governing body is charged with the responsibility of spending the money (school money). An elected school board that does not have [00:40:00] fiscal responsibility does not have the responsibility of levying taxes to meet schools. It is inclined to promise the moon without responsibility of levying the taxes, and passes the buck right back to the County Board. But that is another question. As you know, there is now (as of this moment) a substantial agitation for trying to get a new elected school board, because of somewhat conservative dissatisfaction over what is considered to be the lack of disciplinary controls or core subjects in the Arlington schools. That, however, is another subject. [00:41:00] But the elected school board was abolished. The Gray Plan was, in effect, thrown out, and as you know, Senator Byrd proposed his massive resistance program, which was that no schools in the State of Virginia would be open to Negroes. No white schools would be open to Negroes, and if any white school admitted a Negro, it would be immediately closed. And that was passed by the Byrd-controlled legislature. Senator Byrd and I were on completely opposite poles on that. As a matter of fact, I had run as an anti-Byrd candidate against Mr. Broyhill in 1952, having defeated Maynard Magruder in the primary there, and that was the first election in which [00:42:00] Mr. Stevenson was defeated by Eisenhower in this district by 15,000 votes. And our election (with Mr. Broyhill) was only 322 votes apart. INTERVIEWER: Some people were very anxious to have you get a recount on that vote. Did you ever think of doing that, since there was just such a small…? NARRATOR: The problem in that connection was that Virginia did not then have a statute, which it later adopted as a result of this election, providing for an automatic recount in case there was less than one percent differential. In the absence of such a Virginia statute, the only opportunity for a recount was to go to the Congressional committees themselves. I did take the matter up with [the] Congressional committee, which was then headed by Congressman [00:43:00] Boggs, the majority leader of the House of Representatives, who was later lost in a plane crash in Alaska. Apparently, they were so overwhelmed with other applications for a recount in districts where the political significance was more important [laughing] than it was in Virginia that we were not able to get any interest development on that. INTERVIEWER: What were the big issues, do you remember, in that campaign? NARRATOR: I was a Stevenson supporter, and Mr. Broyhill was a—shall I call it a Byrd supporter—running on the Eisenhower coattails. It was a difficult campaign for anyone—for any Democrat— [00:44:00] because he could not avoid the latter years of the Truman legacy, when (despite the great characteristics of Mr. Truman) his popularity polls had gone down to approximately 25 percent. And the national issues were really—I would just put them down as conservatism or liberalism—and I happened to be on the more liberal side there. Eisenhower was a father figure and was overwhelmingly… INTERVIWER: Brought in many people with him. NARRATOR: In that election I carried Arlington County and the [00:45:00] City of Alexandria and the City of Falls Church. But the rural areas of Fairfax—Fairfax County, which had then not been substantially developed—were the ones that made the difference in the voting; however, I have never regretted it after the first three months, I’ll tell you. [Laughing] Getting back to the massive resistance program, cases had been filed in Arlington, before Judge Bryan and in Norfolk, before Judge Hoffman, before the Federal court. I was asked to represent some 5,000 white students in Norfolk, whose schools had actually been closed. [00:46:00] I appeared before a three-judge court—Federal court at that time—and that three-judge Federal court decided at the same time that the Supreme Court of Appeals (of Virginia) decided that the massive-resistance laws were unconstitutional and that the schools would have to reopen [See Appendix—Notes 3 and 4.] Meanwhile, Judge Bryan had before him—Judge Bryan of the United States District Court (in Alexandria), who incidentally had been my counsel, as I have told you, in the Arlington situation—Judge Bryan had before him the matter of Arlington’s all-white schools and decided that by name some seven black applicants, who he thought were qualified, should be [00:47:00] admitted to Stratford Junior High School in February, just after the decision of the court in Norfolk. Elizabeth (my wife) and I and others in Arlington were greatly concerned about the danger of school closing: I mean the public school system being actually destroyed in northern Virginia—and in the state. We formed in our own living room the so-called “Citizens Committee for the Preservation of the Public Schools.” We were trying to enlist people of all [00:48:00] political persuasions who were more interested in the preservation of the public schools than they were in the question of whether or not the schools were integrated. We were able to get as one of our early council members people like Mrs. Leona Buchholz, who is also still living and who is (if I may say so), although my friend, an ultra-conservative former member of the Arlington County Board. But she felt that it was important to preserve the public schools and more important to preserve the public schools than to preserve white schools at all costs. We formed that organization. William Lightsey, who is in Arlington and now [00:49:00] Executive Secretary of the Northern Virginia Regional Planning Commission, became our executive secretary. We were able to get chapters formed in Norfolk and in Richmond and elsewhere throughout the state and developed it, so we got some 18,000 or 19,000 members and were having a substantial impact upon the legislature. And about that time, Governor Almond, (Lindsay Almond, A-L-M-O-N-D) had before him the question of whether or not all schools should be closed; and, believe it or not, at that time the Senate of Virginia voted 21 to 20 [00:50:00] (with the Lieutenant Governor casting the deciding vote) not to cut off all appropriations for the public schools. And I regret to say that my friend Harry Byrd, who is now a United States Senator, and Godwin, who was at that time in the State Senate, both voted in favor of massive resistance; and both voted to cut off all appropriations (at that time) from the public schools. Governor Godwin—or Mr. Godwin—subsequently had a complete turn-around, and in his first session as governor established the sales tax and became a very [00:51:00] progressive governor in seeking to get money for schools and other public services. But, getting back to the situation which existed when the court in Norfolk (in our case) declared that the schools would have to be reopened at the beginning of the second semester in 1957 or 58, I forget which it was. And I recall very definitely, at that time Mr. David Krupshaw was chairman of the County Board. He and I and others had been talking about seeing that this transition took place in an orderly fashion. Mr. Krupshaw saw to it that [00:52:00] police were stationed in inconspicuous places all around Stratford Junior High School, where theses seven Negro children were coming. Mrs. Theda Henle (H-E-N-L-E), who lived at that time on 23rd Street and who was one of our strong supporters, arranged to have—I thought it was a very fine thing for her to do—arranged to have the mothers of those seven children come to her home—you know, because they were very much worried about what would happen to their children. And the integration of Stratford Junior High School, as a result, passed off extremely smoothly. The “neurosis” (if I may call it that) [00:53:00] which so many of our white friends have with respect to Negroes in schools soon became dissipated. The world did not come to an end, and the school system has gone on. I had one other experience in the public school system, when I represented the school board in its proposed desegregation of Hoffman-Boston— INTERVIWER: A Negro school— NARRATOR: --School and the transfer of those children. That came before Judge Lewis. I represented the school board there. Judge Lewis decided against us— [00:54:00] decided that the school board, in sending any of those children to Thomas Jefferson (as I think it was going to do), was acting improperly, despite the Supreme Court decision. We took that to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and reversed Judge Lewis on that. [See Appendix—Note5.] INTERVIEWER: You don’t have a jury for that kind of case, apparently. NARRATOR: No, no; those are questions of law, as to whether or not an individual’s Fourteenth Amendment rights have been violated. And those matters are decided by the courts. INTERVIEWER: A little bit earlier you spoke about the decision made against the government employees being members of the County Board. What was the thinking behind that, as far as you saw it? NARRATOR: There was a provision [00:55:00] in section 14 of the 1902 constitution, which has now been superseded and stricken out in the revision, which restricted government employees serving on local governing bodies; and that was applied to Arlington. And the basis for that was really—the claim was that a person could not serve two masters, and that if he was serving the federal government he could not properly serve the local government. I think in a community like Arlington that is a fictitious distinction, particularly when you consider [00:56:00] that half of the wage-earners in Arlington are government employees. INTERVIEWER: Of course, it would be their community where they live which they were thinking about, too. I just wondered what that was all about. Well, you remember Arlington, then, 50 years ago probably, when you first came here. Can you tell us something about just how the community looked and was? For instance, Glebe Road was then a narrow street, wasn’t it? NARRATOR: Glebe Road was, of course, a two-lane street over its entire area. Lee Highway was a two-lane highway over its entire area and frequently was muddy. There was water accumulation under what is now the bridge [00:57:00] which still crosses the highway at the bottom of the hill near Rosslyn. The apartment buildings had, of course, not been erected (except in rare instances). The community was a community largely of individual homes. I would say that the homes in Ashton Heights (known now as Ashton Heights) were typical of—and Ballston, no, of Ashton Heights—were typical of many of the homes in Arlington. The Ballston area is now largely apartments. [00:58:00] The fine dwellings of Arlington were chiefly the homes in Lyon Village, which are now older nice homes. INTERVIEWER: This area— NARRATOR: This area in which I now live (except for the home which I now have and the comparatively few others) has not been substantially developed, except along Glebe Road. INTERVIEWER: And was Washington Golf and Country Club— NARRATOR: Washington Golf and Country Club was here. In fact, President Wilson played at Washington Golf and Country Club. The present building is a new building, the old one having been destroyed by fire. INTERVIEWER: The whole area must have been a much more country type of area, with so much more open space. NARRATOR: That is certainly true. INTERVIEWER: Well, you have given us so many interesting things— [00:59:00] NARRATOR: I have one other matter you might be interested in. INTERVIEWER: Good, good. NARRATOR: And that is—and this is a political controversy. In the fights for the County Board, which was a continuing struggle between the developers (on the one hand) and the home-owners (on the other)—in those fights for the County Board the nonpartisans, which had originally defeated me as a Democrat had been (from my point of view) on the side of the angels, even though they didn’t know I was an angel. [01:00:00] The Democratic nominees for the County Board and the nonpartisan nominees were about to cut each other’s throats; and, as a result of that, a highly conservative group of AIM supporters, headed by Bob Peck (as the leader) got complete control of the County Board; and, as a result of that, a vast, huge influx of rezonings occurred—that I think have been quite destructive to the County. In 1955—1954—I had sponsored a liberal Democrat for County Board and had been his campaign manager; [01:01:00] and the nonpartisans had named Ivan Booker (a very fine man, who is still living) as their candidate for the County Board. Booker and Bell cut each other’s throats, so to speak; and, as a result of that INTERVIEWER: Bell was— NARRATOR: Brian (B-R-I-A-N)— INTERVIEWER: Oh, Brian Bell—yes, uh-huh. NARRATOR: Bell-he is now living in Arlington, too. They cut each other’s throats—destroyed each other as far as the election is concerned; and, although together they got a substantial majority, they lost the election. After a period of licking my wounds, I decided that we ought to do something about it—and arranged with Ruth Cox, [01:02:00] who had also been a member—was also a member of the school board and a leader of the nonpartisan movement—to meet in Virginia Stitzenberger’s home, on Rock Spring Drive [sic]. I guess I had better say I asked—we asked—Virginia Stitzenberger if she would intermediate, act as intermediary [01:02:27] END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO [01:02:30] START OF TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE She acted as intermediary to bring Ruth Cox and me in the same room. Which at that time was a little difficult. [Mutual laughter.] We did meet at Virginia Stitzenberger’s, with one or two other people: Shirley Wheeler was one of them. And, as a result of that, we licked our wounds and said, [01:03:00] “This is crazy. This is just plain foolishness. We are (from our point of view) destroying the best interests of the County, because we are too stubborn each to see (each from the point of view of our own point of view—protecting our own point of view).” And we decided that something had to be done about it; and this was in early 1955; we formed (fifteen of us) Arlingtonians for a Better County—A.B.C. Arlingtonians for a Better County was really designed to be a coalition of nonpartisans, [01:04:00] the old nonpartisan movement, Democrats, and Republicans. At that time we had a little difficulty finding some good Republicans, but—you can see I am a Democrat. INTERVIEWER: [Laughter] NARRATOR: But we tried hard; and we got Robert Groom, who had been I think chairman of the Republican Party at that time—a little before that—to become one of our sponsors. And we got together fifteen persons who—five non-partisans, five liberal Democrats, and five rather liberal Republicans—and we organized Arlingtonians for a Better County, later known as A.B.C. And we called a convention again. As you know, Arlington does nothing if not have meetings! [01:05:00] It meets on all occasions. And so we developed or changed our fifteen to 55; and we got 55 persons who were the first governing board of Arlingtonians for a Better County. INTERVIEWER: I suppose somewhere in the record— NARRATOR: I became chairman (the first chairman) of that, along with Alan Dean, who lives on Stafford Street, and Bob Groom, and later became the only chairman of Arlingtonians for a Better County. And that was the origin of the A.B.C. movement, which was really designed as a coalition [01:06:00] between parties and which is (still is), as you know, a coalition between the Democratic Party and the nonpolitical or apolitical group[s] that are not able to operate without a party framework, because of the Hatch Act. There is one other thing you might be interested in, and that was—I did participate as attorney for Bill Lightsey, who was being attacked as a—then a member of the—executive director of the Northern Virginia public utilities—Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority—under the Hatch Act. [01:07:00] And I sought to have the Hatch Act declared unconstitutional. Unfortunately, I was not able to persuade the courts that it was unconstitutional [See Appendix—Note 6]; and the Hatch Act is still in effect. The Supreme Court has upheld it, and the—there are now hearings underway for a possible modification. Perhaps there is one additional thing which I should mention, and then I am through. And that is the “one man, one vote” litigation. In the representation in the Virginia legislature, Arlington had been always shortchanged. Arlington grew so fast—[01:08:00] was growing so fast. Fairfax was growing so fast, that the powers that be in the Virginia legislature, which was charged with reapportioning its own legislature every ten years, simply ignored the right of Arlington to have a fair representation and gave Arlington three delegates, when they were entitled to seven. They gave Fairfax only half of those that they were entitled to have. And Harrison Mann, who was then delegate from Arlington; and Kathryn Stone, who was delegate from Arlington; and John Webb, who was then a delegate from Fairfax—[01:09:00] employed me to bring suit on their behalf, in a class action attacking the constitutionality of the reapportionment statute. That suit was tried before Judge Bryan in a three-judge court in Alexandria. It was won in—before the three-judge court, which declared that the Legislative Apportionment Act was unconstitutional; and the Virginia Attorney General carried that to the Supreme Court. [Appendix—Note 7.] And at that same time that our case was coming up to the Supreme Court, there were cases from New York, Alabama, [01:10:00] and two other states. I arranged to get a meeting of all the counsel representing the complainants in those cases; and we met for some time, trying to work out strategy. And the Supreme Court considered the cases so important that it set aside a whole week of argument. Instead of half a day for argument it set aside a whole week of arguments in these various cases. And I argued the case, which was Davis against Mann, in the Supreme Court; and one of the cases was known as Reynolds against Sims (at the same time). And the Supreme Court (in what is generally considered to be one of its most historic decisions) [01:11:00] threw out all of these State-reapportionment statutes, affirmed Judge Bryan, threw out the Virginia State-reapportionment act; and, as a result of that, Arlington for the first time obtained really the equal representation that it was entitled to. And it was a very substantial victory, in the sense that it has made the northern Virginia voice much more powerful in the State legislature and has kept this area from being treated as a mere stepchild of the State. INTERVIEWER: Well, that is an interesting point. NARRATOR: That I—I would say that if I were to enumerate the two areas in which I have been fortunate enough to have [01:12:00] affected life in Arlington more than any other—it possibly should be three: one would be the reapportionment statutes; one would be the knocking out of the massive-resistance laws; and, strangely enough, the third may be the formation of Arlingtonians for a Better County, which I think has— INTERVIEWER: Oh, isn’t that interesting? NARRATOR: Which has, I think, over the past fifteen—over the past twenty—years, despite the fact the government is in no sense perfect—has resulted in Arlington being better governed than almost any community I know. INTERVIEWER: Well, now, that is an interesting statement to make. NARRATOR: Let me add one other thing—I keep adding things—and that is that Arlington is very fortunate in its form of government. [01:13:00] And I think that you will find that scholars of government will say so, because Arlington has a small, highly visible governing body, elected at large. As a result of that, Arlington has a clean government. We have not suffered from the bribery charges that beleaguered Fairfax when a supervisor from one district would team up with a supervisor from another district so that he will get a zoning through where the supervisor from a particular district could avoid responsibility for it. And where the temptation [01:14:00] for bribery was so great. And let me say that I think that, since 1930—in the early days, when there was a charge (and a sustained charge) of embezzlement on the part of County Treasurer and County Clerk (at that time)—that since that date, I think that Arlington has had one of the highest-type governments, from the point of view of financial integrity, of any community I know. And I attribute it largely to that; and I in saying that I include my vigorous political opponents in the same category. [01:15:00] I attribute no financial wrongdoing to them. INTERVIEWER: Yes, I can see. Well, now you have told us so many interesting things about Arlington government and Arlington County in the past, do you have any picture in your mind as to what Arlington should aim for now, with our zoning laws? For instance, should we try to—? NARRATOR: Well, there is no way that Arlington can avoid the responsibilities of being almost a part of a city. The developments at Rosslyn and the developments in Crystal City, of office buildings, has [sic] been [01:16:00] inevitable and (I think) on the whole a benefit for Arlington. I think it is proper for Arlington to say that we are not going to permit our community to become much more overcrowded than it is now; and there is other space available further out, and I think that it is important for—shall I say, “city development”?—that cities not be clustered and crowded in the form in which the inner city of Washington is developed. Personally, I am—I think that the present County Board, which has many financial dilemmas meeting it, is nevertheless [01:17:00] trying to meet the issues in a very intelligent way and have been very effective in setting aside park lands and in taking other steps which make Arlington a good community. I would simply commend the present government, on the whole. INTERVIEWER: Now, how would we prevent overcrowdedness? By not allowing— NARRATOR: By zoning. INTERVIEWER: More high-rises? NARRATOR: No, by zoning and restricting high-rises except in extremely exceptional circumstances. It’s really a question of the number of people to the acre that you permit—the density. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Now, we now have some problems in the schools—just from what one reads—there are less children in the schools. NARRATOR: That’s right. INTERVIEWER: But the budget has increased— [01:18:00] NARRATOR: That’s right. INTERVIEWER: So that is posing some problems and some questions in the minds of people who vote. NARRATOR: I am not— INTERVIEWER: Do you have any comment on that? NARRATOR: I am not certain—I am not certain that Arlington schools have made an adequate effort to reduce their overhead. And now I realize that that is not easy, and I realize the inflationary problems that have overtaken all factors of government, but I do not think that Arlington schools have made the same effort to reduce their overhead that the others areas of the County have made. I don’t know—I am not familiar enough with the details of their budget to be able to comment specifically on it, but their administrative costs are still very high. INTERVIEWER: I’ll turn off [01:19:00] for just a minute. If Mr. Campbell comes back with some more thoughts, we will finish with anything else he has to say. [Break] Mr. Campbell, when we talked about the election in which Mr. Dugan won, it seemed to have been a departure from the stream of activity. Could you fill in a little bit more of the background on that and how you thought that worked out? NARRATOR: Well, in the first place, I was not too well physically at that particular year and was not able to campaign as actively as I should have.As a matter of fact, after my first term in the County Board, I was fortunate enough to be reelected without any opposition on the part of anyone. So—which was a very nice situation to be in. But, as you know, anyone who has been in the County government for any length of time [01:20:00] builds up a series of enmities by the people who have been disappointed, either because he has voted for or against some project that they are particularly interested in. In this particular instance, I was a Democrat. I had been elected as a Democrat. I had been elected with the blessing of Mr. Harry Green, who had been considered one of the establishment in the Democratic Party—in fact, “the” establishment” in the Democratic Party. Even though Mr. Harry Green and I differed on many more things than we agreed upon, we had mutual respect for each other. I was in the minority in the Democratic Party at that time. In fact, during the war Mr. Green proposed [01:21:00] that the reassessment of real properties, which ordinarily (under the statute at that time) took place every four years, be postponed for another two years. I thought that was completely terrible, because prices of real estate had gone up and prices of land had gone up and doubled and tripled; and I thought it was outrageous that—and would increase unfairness for this to happen. Unfortunately, the County Board voted four to one to agree with Mr. Green and postpone the assessment; so I was in the minority on that. Mr. Dugan was able to—by his flyers and brochures which went out and which I did not [01:22:00] adequately counteract—to say that the Democratic County Board voted to postpone the assessments. See? INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. NARRATOR: And that, as a result of that, Arlingtonians are losing a great deal of money to real-estate developers and so forth that—and the unfairness. And it was not pointed out, and any comments that I could make on the subject were rather lost, the fact that I was in the minority and voted against the action that the County Board had taken. But the election was fairly close; but I would say that there was simply a movement against the Democratic Party as a party, [01:23:00] by the nonpartisan movement of government employees, that was largely responsible for my— INTERVIEWER: Loss. NARRATOR: My defeat. I think the people that defeated me afterwards were a little unhappy that it transpired; and that doesn’t—this sounds egotistical on my part; and I didn’t mean it that way—because they were a very dedicated group and, on the whole, a very—a very fine group of people. INTERVIEWER: Now you sort of had several periods in your work. You were (and always have been) probably a Democrat, but you were with the A.B.C. in a later stage. [01:24:00] NARRATOR: That is correct. I started as a Democrat, and I still am a Democrat. I—I took a reasonably active part in the campaign for Mr. Fisher, this year; and I consider my role as a member of the A.B.C a role as a Democrat. Because A.B.C. is really a coalition. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. But people from both parties worked in that, as you said earlier— NARRATOR: Yes, they worked—people from both parties worked in that. As the years went by, this became less and less true; and in certain years in which the A.B.C.’s lost control [01:25:00] of the County government, they lost control through nominees of the Republican Party. So, as a result of that, you might say that the Republican Party (as a party) pulled out—from any semblance of the coalition. INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: It never had really come in. Hal Casto, who is now dead—and who was a very fine man, but simply— INTERVIEWER: To the right. NARRATOR: Simply—his views were substantially different from mine, as to the propriety of development and government services in Arlington. Hal Casto became chairman of the County Board during this period. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Well, you have given us a very, very good picture of so many parts of Arlington’s history that we needed background on. I thank you very much for letting me come today and for all of the time [01:26:00] that you have given this morning. NARRATOR: You are certainly welcome. [01:26:04] END OF TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE END OF AUDIO --END TRANSCRIPT— APPENDIX The appellate decisions referred to in the foregoing interview may all be found in the average legal library under the following citations: Page 6, Note 1: Smith v. Kelley, 162 Va. 645 Page 9, Note 2: Dean V. Paocelli, 194 Va. 219 Page 12, Notes 3 and 4: James v. Almond, 170 Fed. Supp. 331; Duckworth v. James, 267 F.2d 224 Page 14, Note 5: Warner v. Arlington School Board, 357 F.2d 452 Page 18, Note 6: Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority v. U.S. Civil Service Commission, 437 F.2d 1346 Page 19, Note 7: Davis v. Mann, 378 U.S. 678, 12 L.Ed. 2d 1346 [The original verbatim transcription by Roger Carson Price, PhD., December 1976, was edited by D. W. Loving. The work was then retyped with minor editing on 1/06/04 by Lisa Cosgrove-Davies.] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, May 26, 1975, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on May 26, 1975. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Emund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26-May-75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Relation A related resource Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19750526.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theda Nichols Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edmund Campbell Location The location of the interview Arlington, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:26:06 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 178kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edmund Campbell, May 26, 1975 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Edmund Campbell on May 26, 1975. Interviewer is Theda Nichols. Item contains both typed transcript and audio recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Emund Campbell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26-May-75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Theda Nichols Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context campbelled19750526 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/507037cf84c1c92f5e39cb55b77d40c2.mp3 b74b7f2573931fdde03f4f81cf199c34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Constance McAdam, April 20, 1992, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County Department of Parks and Recreation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Constance McAdam, regarding her life and her experience in the Arlington County Parks and Recreation Department. Interviewers are Edmund Campbell and Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance McAdam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20-Apr-92 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmnund Campbell Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mcadamc19920420.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1950s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/adb96b1d11552eb72554a75ace0f940d.pdf 092b5cd7f06bf9d669c54585b4d0f733 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Constance McAdam INTERVIEWER 1: Cas Cocklin INTERVIEWER 2: Ed Campbell DATE: November 20, 1987 INTERVIEWER: This is Cas Cocklin interviewing Constance Rollison McAdam accompanied by Edmund Campbell. This is November 20, 1987, and we are here for the Oral History Program of the Arlington County Libraries. Connie, it's a delight to have you here, and we want to look into, particularly, your activities in the Recreation Department and the pursuant department that developed from that. Before we get into the Recreation Department, suppose you tell us just briefly your background where you came from and your training and some of your experiences before you came to Arlington. NARRATOR: Thank you for the opportunity of being here on this lovely, warm day in '87. I am a native Virginian born in Petersburg, and have spent most of my working career in Virginia with the exception of 6 months when I was in Stockholm, Sweden, for a special assignment with The International Recreation Association. I graduated from Richmond Professional Institute, which is now known as Virginia Commonwealth University. I majored in recreation and also have a degree in elementary education as well. Since that time I have received additional training in management. I believe that working experience equates with advanced degrees. I came to Arlington in 1958. Prior to that time I had worked in Martinsville and Danville, Virginia as the director of their recreation centers and playground programs. I also had a brief stint as a director of a social work agency in Richmond the Williamsburg Community House. INTERVIEWER: And then you also said you were with the army briefly. NARRATOR: That's right. I was with the armed services at Camp Pickett, Virginia, for 2 years. INTERVIEWER: And you had an interesting experience which may have nothing to do with Arlington history, but you tell us And identify the date. NARRATOR: A special happening I recall occurred in 1952, during the Korean War. Camp Pickett was a training base for medical replacements aides, litter bearers. A film, "Battle Circus," was produced on site at Camp Pickett. Humphrey Bogart and June Allyson were the stars. She was the wonderful nurse and Humphrey Bogart was the doctor in the field. I was able to watch much of the filming of that movie. INTERVIEWER: Virginia does encourage the use of the state for movie sites. NARRATOR: And they did because Virginia is very much like Korea. That was an interesting experience. I came to Arlington in 1958. I was in charge of all the playgrounds and activities. INTERVIEWER: How many playgrounds were there? NARRATOR: At that time there were about 56 different playground areas. Attached to the schools as well as independent sites. INTERVIEWER: How many recreation centers were there then? NARRATOR: There were only 6 recreation centers at that time. INTERVIEWER: And these were scattered about the County? NARRATOR: There were several in what was at that time predominantly and I guess still predominantly black areas. The Carver Recreation Center and Langston Center were both in the black community. There was a center at Lubber Run. It was under construction at that time. The Lubber Run Center was completed in 1959. The Dawson Terrace Center which was in the old historic Dawson House INTERVIEWER: Off of Lee Highway. NARRATOR: Yes. That was one of the centers which was in a predominantly white neighborhood. Another center in the Gulf Branch area was called the Glebe Center. INTERVIEWER: Near Madison School. NARRATOR: Yes. It was in a historic building. A very small house with log construction. We operated four centers. INTERVIEWER: And what were the programs that you had in the playgrounds then? What did that consist of? NARRATOR: At that time it was the playgrounds were operated primarily during the warm weather which meant spring, summer and early fall. They were the basis of all of our programs. The children could attend after school. In addition there was the summer program. Grounds were open and the children, in those days, the parents were at home so they could just come and go back and forth, and they didn't have the problem of not having anyone at home, so they spent their days right on the playground. They would come early in the morning and stay late in the afternoon. There were many kinds of activities arts and crafts, sports and games. We didn't have swimming pools so we'd have to actually take them, transport them quite a way to even get into any swimming area. The nearest swimming pools I guess at that point were at the military bases. We used Henderson Hall swimming pool, and we did transport them over into Alexandria's pools. So the summertime the playgrounds were really the focal point of all youth activities. The recreation centers and the school building that we were able to use then formed the basis of what I would call the adult activities. And even back in '58 when I came there were senior adult clubs. We had some of the first senior adult or senior citizen clubs in the country. These were held in recreation centers. INTERVIEWER: And who were they under? Was that under your administration? NARRATOR: Yes, the department was offering those. The playground and recreation center programs offered a wide range of activities including dance, drama and music, including a youth orchestra. It was very small in nature and not really formal. In addition, a whole range of classes and activities were available on a fee basis. INTERVIEWER: So these are started much earlier. NARRATOR: Yes. The department actually began in 1948 so when I came here it was 10 years old. INTERVIEWER: Let me interject for a minute when you say the department what do you mean? NARRATOR: The Department of Parks and Recreation started in 1948 under a man named Buck Richardson who was a coach here a football coach in the school system here, and he started the program. At that time, much of what was available was the playground program, the center program, sports leagues, and the senior club programs. A few music and drama groups were just being organized. INTERVIEWER: Now what was one of your main concerns at that time? NARRATOR: At that time, the integration of the schools occurred in 1959, and one of my major thrusts when I first came here was bringing together from particularly from the youth and the teen point of view an atmosphere and an environment in which people could come together and play and enjoy each other in a meaningful way. INTERVIEWER: You're talking about a Negro, as it was then, community and the white community. NARRATOR: Yes, we had a Negro section within the department, and all of those activities were headed by Negro staff. There was INTERVIEWER: Who was the individual in charge? NARRATOR: Mr. Johnson, Ernest Johnson was the head of that program. And, by the way, he is still living living in the community. One of the things that I was primarily responsible for in that time was the playground program and the teen program within the recreation centers and how to bring them together and integrate them. And I did that by getting representatives from the various communities and recreation centers, bringing them together, involving them, letting them discuss the issues and how to deal with those issues. Bringing people together and we would plan dances with the teens particularly. INTERVIEWER: That must have posed some problems. NARRATOR: It did. We had to get the police involved. We had good support from the police although at that time there were no black policeman. We got some of the principals involved. One of the ones that I think about is Bill Young who was the principal at McKinley. We got parents. We looked to the community organizations such as the Links Organization which has been around a long time, and we got the leaders of these organizations both black and white to come together and form a group of concerned parents to work together. INTERVIEWER: Were there problems working with them or was there lots of good will? NARRATOR: There was some apprehension at the beginning, but it really didn't take very long for us to come together because it was in a setting where it was important for the social action to take place. INTERVIEWER: Connie, you used the word "we" were you a spearhead of that? NARRATOR: I spearheaded much of that because that was my area of responsibility. Mr. Richardson who was the Director obviously gave me lots of support. There was another man that I worked with his name was Mr. Edsel Martz who was my supervisor. I am an aggressive person who just gets satisfaction from that kind of role. I had previous experience as a convener. INTERVIEWER: You were trained in this field whereas you said Mr. Richardson was involved as coach and I know Edsel Marks was a coach. These people did not have the training. NARRATOR: Yes, I was indeed the first person the County hired with the training and background in recreation administration. I was one of the first women administrators. INTERVIEWER: How did these dances turn out, for instance, because there is usually a little more tension there than there is in other activities? NARRATOR: During the first year there was a lot of tension, but within 3 years we no longer had to have the police come and monitor. We had a strong corps of volunteers and youth leaders. We looked to the youth leaders to bring this about. INTERVIEWER: Can you identify the time of this now? NARRATOR: This would have been between '59 and '62 those were the years when we had youth dances. INTERVIEWER: And where did you hold these dances? NARRATOR: We held them at the schools. We had some at McKinley School. We had some at Carver Center. We had some at Wakefield High School. INTERVIEWER: Now, Connie, at that time there were comparatively few Negroes in the so called all white schools or previously all white schools. The full integration did not really come until much later, and, of course, the Negro population in Arlington is comparatively small. But there was integration in the dances as far as blacks and whites attending? NARRATOR: Yes, there was, and I would say in the same basic relationship as to the population. At that time was maybe only 6 or 7% population, and I would say we had that kind of representation. I must say, though, that even today in locations like Carver the Carver Center and the Langston Center they still have their programs, and they are predominately black. Those neighborhoods that have remained predominately black still have dances where they are predominately black although I would say that that's changing now because you have more Hispanics and you have more Asians, and I see evidence of that kind of integration within the black community occurring now. But I did think that the working relationships between the organizations in the community helps and is making our recent concerns about bringing new populations in much easier because of that experience. INTERVIEWER: And was there demand for more playground or recreational space in the southern part of the County? It seems to me that there was at that time. NARRATOR: Yes. There were limited facilities in the south, we've had a tremendous demand for recreation programs, particularly for the youth services. This County has always been very, very keen on providing the youth quality education programs as well as quality sports programs. The South was always devoid of lots of major facilities. So that was one of the things that we could see that needed to be changed. One of the things again that I got caught up in early on was the expanded use of the public school. The schools were used every day for school programs including after school intramural sports and other kinds of sports activities. However, the County Recreation Department ran all of the Sports Week and programs, and we had adults that wanted to play and wanted to use the gyms and wanted to use the ballfields. So the County Board put together a committee that looked at a joint committee to come up with a formal agreement about the use of the public school. And at that time the people who were involved in that were Mr. Baker early on Mr. Baker who was the assistant director and myself and Ralph Wilson who had come in after Mr. Richardson had died. We all came together and formulated a joint use agreement between the County Board and the School Board. And that agreement essentially said that when the school aren't being used for school that the Recreation Department would have the first choice of the use of the school. So that that meant all we had to do was to put in a request to use a classroom, put in a request to use a gymnasium, a woodworking shop, the ballfield outside, the playground outside and if the schools weren't using them for the school program then we were responsible for scheduling. INTERVIEWER: And who was charged for the heating and the lighting and all of that? Was this pro rated? NARRATOR: The school system, even to this day, provides that support to the program. They provide all of the heating and the lighting for the interior. For the exterior if we were using the fields and whatever, the Park Division within the department I didn't have any responsibility for that but the Park Division would maintain the grass mowing, the field renovations and whatever. INTERVIEWER: Now prior to that time, Connie, was there a sort of bureaucracy with the school running its own recreation department after hours and you running organized groups. NARRATOR: Yes. The schools did have lots of clubs when I first came here, you see, the teachers would run special interest clubs after school. And it quickly became obvious that we had the staff to do that we had the expertise because we were trained in social recreation and the kinds of activities that the kids were looking for. So it soon became our program, and we would hire the staff. We would go into the schools. In fact, there was a time, if you can believe this, that we were actually running programs at lunch hours in all of the school systems. We would go, during the lunch hour, and have activities for the kids at lunchtime. INTERVIEWER: Was there any resentment on the part of the school system that their turf, literally and figuratively, was being impinged upon? NARRATOR: The biggest issue that we had was when we would use a classroom for a class activity or any kind of event that we would have the teachers would be absolutely furious if they came in the next morning, and their eraser was not exactly where they left it on the board and oh, we would have such interesting kinds of things like the fish tanks would get fiddled with, or they would put soap in the fish tank or something would happen in the night when we were in there using the room, and the next day the teacher would come in and they would be furious. Or if we had an activity in the gym, and one of the lights would get broken or the ceiling tile would get broken it was the whole matter of why can't we continue to have structured activities, controlled activities, rather than when we would come in we would give the people the freedom of playing and enjoying and not necessarily being in a structured instructed program a highly controlled program. INTERVIEWER: It's like somebody coming into your home when you're away and changing the location of some furniture, or NARRATOR: Those were the biggest issues. There was a little bit of a time when we had to have a real close working relationship with the physical education people as to the kids and their involvement in the P.E. program, and then if they could also come and be involved in our program. For example, if you were very active in the basketball program in the high school, some of the coaches said you can't also play in the recreation league. But we have worked beyond that, too. There was a little bit of that at the beginning. INTERVIEWER: So you've had many, many points of conflict, but most of them have been ironed out. NARRATOR: That's right, but again, the leadership from the School Board and the County Board together with, I think, really the committed professional leadership from the staff, from the recreation staff has really made that work over the years. INTERVIEWER: Have you felt, over the years, that the County Board has given you most of what has been requested for budget? INTERVIEWER: Absolutely. I just cannot say enough about the County Board and their support of the recreation program. INTERVIEWER: And this has been true regardless of who's on the County Board? NARRATOR: That's right. It has been. There was a few years of where we had what we called the "tight years." But, even then, we've always gotten very, very strong support. INTERVIEWER: You started here I'm referring to the fact that you came in the Recreation Department obviously your duties have expanded. NARRATOR: I'll just give you a little quick overview where I came and where I am now at this point. When I came I was in charge of playgrounds and centers. Then I became responsible for centers and services there was a reorganization within about 6 or 8 years. I then became responsible for all of the performing arts activities, and that's another whole area we haven't even talked about. Arlington was kind of a leader, a trend setter, in that. We had a children's theater. We had the symphony. The symphony is the oldest organization in this community. We then developed an opera theater. And we had the Arlington Players. We have 3 drama groups right now, but we only had one at that time. So I became responsible for all of the performing arts. Then, within about 5 years after that, the person at that time, Mr. Baker, who was the recreation division chief who had the responsibility for all of the recreation left the community so within 10 years after I came here I became the recreation division chief. INTERVIEWER: What did the department include? NARRATOR: It included sports and athletics, all of the creative and performing arts that included all of the recreation centers included all of the senior adult programs and at that time as soon as I became responsible for that I also instituted a program for therapeutic recreation which is for the physically and mentally handicapped. We expanded that. I got one of the first grants in the state to establish that. So that was the senior adult program, the therapeutic recreation program as well as all of the centers and the playgrounds and the sports programs. So I took that over 10 years after I came here and have been the recreation division chief until this past year when we had another reorganization and I'm now the assistant director of the Department of Parks, Recreation and Community Resources. INTERVIEWER: You speak of another reorganization. What was the first reorganization? NARRATOR: The first one really had to do the with department. We were the Department of Parks and Recreation. We then took on the Planning Department, and we were then the Department of Environmental Affairs. INTERVIEWER: That was under Bill Hughes. NARRATOR: That was under Bill Hughes, and then we became the Department of Community Affairs, and when we did that we took on Inspection Services, an Extension Service and Consumer Affairs. So what we really did was like Topsy, we grew. And we grew too big. So this recent reorganization was splitting off the huge, huge department, and we're now back to where we were when I came here in '58 with parks and recreation with the exception we now have Extension Service the Virginia Extension Service. So I have kind of grown with this department. My major thrust, of course, has been with the recreation and I would say the program part of the department looking at what really makes the quality of life in Arlington different because of what we've done, and I would say it's because we've given some folks a whole range of things to do in their free time, in their time away from work, and their time away from family duties. We've focused on the family focus of what to do as families. We've worked together with schools. We've worked together with the churches, the scouts organizations, the other youth-serving agencies. I've always been very closely aligned with the Y.M.C.A. both the central Y and the Veterans Y. It's looking at what we can do to make people feel their quality of life is enhanced because they can get involved with a play or they can go camping or take a class. INTERVIEWER: And that there're all sorts of opportunities available that they couldn't do on their own. I wanted to ask you about the development of the programs for the elderly the senior citizen activities as well as the different classes. You instituted some rather original things. Do tell us about those. NARRATOR: One of the things that when I came here I was pretty much aware of the fact that they had the first senior clubs. They called them Silver Age Clubs at that time. That meant that groups of seniors would come together, elect officers and just have kind of social activities cards and bingo and that sort of thing. I also through my national contacts because I'd also been very active on the national scene with the National Recreation and Park Association as well as our state organizations. INTERVIEWER: In what way? NARRATOR: I held office I was the president of the Virginia Recreation and Park Society, was also on the Board of Directors of the National Recreation and Park Association. So I could see by my contacts on the national level that Arlington was aging rather rapidly. INTERVIEWER: Now you're talking about in the late sixties or seventies? NARRATOR: I'm talking about even as early as '62 I could see the significant numbers of people that were taking advantage of our Silver Age Club INTERVIEWER: Demographic changes. NARRATOR: Demographic changes were occurring. And so I took it upon myself to look for ways in which we could take advantage of that including when they began to close schools think they weren't going to need some schools. I would grab onto the opportunity of getting additional space and facilities. INTERVIEWER: So as the children diminished and the elderly enlarged then you were there with proposals. NARRATOR: That's right. Then, of course, the federal programs came along, and I did go and got the state money for the first nutrition site which we had down at the Drew School the first senior nutrition site and that, of course, has expanded into four. INTERVIEWER: I remember at the time that was starting that you were having a number of I would say formerly well to do or at least definitely middle class people and someone questioned the need of nutrition for them, and these people who were living on retirement income which was substantially less than they were used to, and they did not know how to cook, for instance, economically. NARRATOR: The focus was not so much on the meal actually the meal was just the reason to get them together. We focused on providing them with instruction on what is good nutrition. In addition to the nutrition classes we would help them deal with how to keep their time from being just idled away in total boredom. We would give them other kinds of activities. We would give them the opportunity to go together as a group to take a trip or we'd give them a class. We had such things as stone carving and many other kinds of social opportunities for them to continue to learn and grow and be creative. So I saw the nutrition program as a way to get people together. For those and for many other people that came, believe it or not, it was their major meal for the day. But in addition to that they learned how to cope and survive for the rest of their time. It was an opportunity to get people who were not quite so economically deprived to come in and help with those others. We had a good integration of people who were, if you want to call them, in a different social or economic setting could come in and really work together with the elderly. And that has worked out very well. INTERVIEWER: And those continue today. NARRATOR: They continue today. They've gone beyond that now because we now have what we call senior centers. Although the nutrition programs are under the Agency on Aging, we've expanded that to include a complete comprehensive senior center where health people come in you know the blood pressure screening, we have ophthalmologists come in. We have podiatrists. Nurse practitioners dealing with health issues. INTERVIEWER: Now these are aimed at a lower economic level? NARRATOR: No, it's across the board. INTERVIEWER: Connie, I do not want you to be too modest. Didn't you do most of this? NARRATOR: Yes, I took the leadership in doing this, and I took the leadership in this way. I was responsible for just writing out the grant and going forward. And although I had the blessing of Mr. Hughes Bill Hughes gave me the freedom to take risks and I implemented many programs. INTERVIEWER: You say you applied for grants? NARRATOR: Grants. You know the grant money you know we had to have money to open these sites so I got the federal money to do that. INTERVIEWER: How much money did you raise? NARRATOR: At that time, I think we were getting something like 20 or 30 thousand dollars for a new center site. INTERVIEWER: You prepared the grant applications? NARRATOR: Yes. So I would prepare the grant, and then, of course, I'd work with the community once we got it going I would collect the staff and work with the community to be involved. INTERVIEWER: And did you, shall I say, work out the additional programs that you've referred to? NARRATOR: Yes, I was directly responsible in that I was the administrator who had to make the final decisions on what happened. I would hire the staff and get the staff and get the program going and get it launched. So the nutrition site was one. Then in terms of the seniors and we're on kind of the subject of seniors I also was responsible for helping develop the Northern Virginia Agency on Aging. I was Arlington's representative along with Dorothy Rigdon who was the citizen representative in getting the Northern Virginia Agency on Aging going which meant looking at the whole comprehensive program. Now, mind you, many people would say to me well you're just in recreation, why are you concerned about all of these other issues? But I knew that recreation is a major component of any of the quality of life services for people here and I knew that if I could, in any way, through my ability to organize and get people together we could have a spin off support for the recreation programs, that that would be of value. So we organized the Northern Virginia Agency on Aging. I served as the staff representative to the Commission on Aging for about 8 years 8 or 10 years and helped them in their comprehensive planning and advice to the County Board on the whole issue of aging. Now, mind you, this was primarily back from when I came in and could see what was happening in the community and the desire of the older people to get involved in recreation kinds of programs. And I knew that you couldn't do that unless you were concerned about their total human needs that I really became more of a took a human service kind of focus with recreation being an integral part of the service delivery systems. INTERVIEWER: How much have you worked with the Department of Human Resources or whatever its latest name is? NARRATOR: Well, at the time Helen Hackman was here Helen Hackman and I worked very closely. I worked together with her in getting the Madison Day Care Center going and having the recreation center there. She and I worked very closely with the folks at Culpepper when they started that program. INTERVIEWER: Yes, you have lots of activities there, don't you? NARRATOR: Yes, I was responsible for setting up the whole leisure senior center program INTERVIEWER: At Culpepper Gardens. NARRATOR: Yes, that's right. So I saw where the trend was going in terms of senior adults and it is still going, by the way. The population is still aging. Where I see our need now is more looking at what is affectionately called the "old, old" because we have significant numbers of people now who are 85 and older with the potential of living to be 100. And those my mother is one of those she's 84 and still active and driving her car and I see a healthy lifestyle for those people. We have got to continue to work at the myth of because you get to be 85 you now need to go into a rocking chair. INTERVIEWER: You spoke of Culpepper Gardens. I want you to tell about that, too. NARRATOR: Okay. Well, Culpepper Gardens is another one of those kind of wonderful things that can only happen in Arlington, I believe. INTERVIEWER: Explain just briefly. NARRATOR: Culpepper Gardens is a retirement home that was initiated by a non profit organization called the Arlington Retirement Housing Corporation, and it has a board of directors that includes representatives from the community the business and the citizens as well as from the Unitarian Church. And it came together and fought the fight of getting the first retirement home built in Arlington. And, as a part of that, Dr. Hackman and I from the Department of Human Services said we wanted to have this component of health services in this building as well as recreation programs in this building. So, as a result, the County bought off on that idea. We worked together with lots of people to convince the public officials to do that. And they have leased the sub basement of Culpepper, and we have a senior center the one only senior center meaning the public senior center. There is a senior center at the Presbyterian Church which is run by a completely independent organization. But Culpepper Garden is the only publicly operated senior center in the County. INTERVIEWER: What about the one at St. Andrew's? NARRATOR: That's a recreation center it doesn't have all of the components. INTERVIEWER: You distinguish between a senior center and the recreation areas. NARRATOR: Yes, because the senior adult center at Culpepper only serves senior citizens. It's a single age you have to be 65 and over to have any activities there. INTERVIEWER: Now what about Lee School you know on Lee Highway and Lexington? NARRATOR: They have everybody from 2 to 102 there the whole range of activities there although there is a program at Lee, a significant part of that program is for seniors. I'd say a good 50% of what they do at Lee Center is for seniors because that's where the population is. But Culpepper is all senior citizens. INTERVIEWER: Any senior citizens in Arlington are at Culpepper Garden and where else? NARRATOR: That's the only one that's operated exclusively for senior citizens. The one at Lee is a community program and has all ages. The one at Cherrydale is really it is for seniors but there are other younger by that you know the 45 year olds can go there. INTERVIEWER: At Cherrydale you mean NARRATOR: At St. Andrew's. The whole senior adult program has really grown and expanded. INTERVIEWER: What is it? NARRATOR: At this point in time there are I think 13 locations where they have can go the seniors can go and find activities and that whole program we could spend a whole segment of the tape talking about that. INTERVIEWER: I'd like a little on it! NARRATOR: Because they focus, again, and this I will not be modest on this this was absolutely my insistence that whatever was done for the seniors that it was done with them and by them and not for them. I hate the idea of having programs that are warmed over children's programs given to seniors. So in every case the senior citizens get involved in making decisions. They decide what they want to do. They're giving the opportunity for the leadership. They are the ones who in many cases provide the programs. INTERVIEWER: They decide where they want to go on trips or tours. You don't arrange that and then put a list NARRATOR: No, they decide where they want to go and we have them involved all the way. We also have lots of older people who are working with the older people. We have 65-year-old people who are still employed. We ignore this business of when you get to be 60 you're no longer any good. And so we use them in the program. And we focus on letting them make the decisions about what's important to them giving them the positive feeling of self worth. That's just the overall principle that we develop all of our programs. And the staff is committed to that. So that, I think, is something that speaks well for the program itself as well as the strong support, again, of the County Board. They have given significant support to that. INTERVIEWER: So how much does one of these senior citizen centers provide a staff member, equipment NARRATOR: Equipment and then planning expertise as well as just the overall supervision of what's happening. But you may only have one staff person and you may have 16 volunteers that are there conducting the teaching stone carving, showing slides, helping with income tax or whatever, you know. Whatever the seniors need and whatever they think they need, they get the people in to do it. They're involved to help themselves. INTERVIEWER: What about meals? NARRATOR: They are only 4 locations now where meals are served regularly, and that is at Drew Center, the Gunston Center, at Langston and at Madison. INTERVIEWER: And are they purchased by the attendees? NARRATOR: They pay a nominal fee for the cost of the meal. INTERVIEWER: Tell a little bit about the Madison Center which I believe was set up particularly as an alternative nursing home care. NARRATOR: Yes, that is a little bit different although that is clearly a Department of Human Resources program. INTERVIEWER: It is a day care center for the handicapped adult. NARRATOR: For the frail elderly. So it's an alternative to putting a person who needs kind of custodial and oversight care rather than putting them in a nursing home you take them there actually transported you can have them picked up at home in the morning, taken there and brought back home in the afternoon. INTERVIEWER: And how many are handled? NARRATOR: I think there're about 40 that are there. INTERVIEWER: A long waiting list? NARRATOR: There is a long waiting list at this point. In fact, there really would be reason to have an additional site. INTERVIEWER: So the Recreation Department provides the activities there aside from the health problems. NARRATOR: That's right. The unique thing about Madison is that, of course, it is in a recreation center so we have 2 preschool programs and at the same time we have the ladies come there for dance aerobics, and we have many different ages that are there at that center so there's an intergenerational mix of activities so those folks who are there at the senior adult day care center are in contact with young people. In fact, we take them in. There is a regular exchange of programs. INTERVIEWER: Have you any estimate of the number of people that take advantage of these programs? I'm speaking now of the senior programs. NARRATOR: We have a mailing list for our newsletter for the senior adult program, and I think the current number is about 6,000. Now that's 6,000 newsletters, but that means that there are 1 or 2 in a family. And I would say, on an average, we probably are reaching on a monthly average we probably are reaching 10 to 15 thousand people a month. INTERVIEWER: In the senior citizen centers, are they meeting every day or just certain days. NARRATOR: Arranged. Some meet every day. Some meet every other day, but I would say, in the County, there is never a day including Saturday and Sunday where there is not something where if they really want to do something can do it. INTERVIEWER: And you always have staff there. NARRATOR: Always have a staff person available. INTERVIEWER: And if you're serving meals you NARRATOR: The meals are only Monday through Friday. Unfortunately, we don't have a weekend program. INTERVIEWER: And how are they arranged? NARRATOR: They are arranged that's under the Agency on Aging, Ed, and I really don't know the details on that because that's another program. That's not under my jurisdiction, but I think they have an arrangement with the school system. They used to have an arrangement with the public school system to provide the meals, but I'm not sure whether that is the case now or not. The philosophy has always been to involve the seniors in what they want to do and how they want to participate, and what is coming now and what I see the next phase is that we're going to have to look at this old the affectionately "old, old" because many of them are getting frailer and frailer. They want to stay in their own homes, but they may need to have some contact in their own homes. So I see now we've got to figure out how we can get to them to reach them other than having them watch T.V. all the time and be so bored by just watching T.V. So we're exploring the possibility of sending people out to their homes to find out how we can get them in contact with other people. Because the most important thing that anybody can do and ought to be able to do every day is to touch somebody. INTERVIEWER: Communication. NARRATOR: Communication and touching. I mean it's more than communicating, it's touching and reacting and inter reacting even though it's getting into an argument and taking a different point of view whatever having some social interaction. INTERVIEWER: Some stimulation. NARRATOR: Some stimulation, and so we're looking into ways in which we may be able to do that. That's costly because you're talking about in some instances one on one, and you can't always afford to do that but if we could find enough . So we're looking into the possibility of using maybe a party room or a room set aside in an apartment building where maybe 2 or 3 could come down. They may not be able to get out or a regular basis – but come down to a place and maybe have some activities there. So that's our next real challenge. How do we keep in touch with these older people who have been involved in our program for a number of years, and they still want to maintain the contact with the program, but are just not physically able to get out, and that will be one of the thrusts that we will be working on. INTERVIEWER: You have a task for or a committee looking into NARRATOR: Yes. We have organized a Senior Adult Council, and those are all volunteers, and within just our senior adult program alone we must have 2 or 3 hundred volunteers that regularly come together and work with us. So the Senior Adult Council will be looking into that and be making recommendations to the County Board on what we may be able to do. In fact, it may be a part of our budget discussion this year. I'm not sure whether that will go forward or not, but that will be coming forward in the future. So we want to keep in touch with all of those people that have come through our program who are still living in Arlington and who all say that Arlington is such a great place to live because the seniors like the program. That's not true only for seniors, but I'm saying we've had examples where seniors have left here and gone down to Florida to live and have come back here. An example of that is Mr. Shepherd. He moved to Florida, and he and his wife were down there for only about 3 months, and they came back here and said they don't want to live down there. There are no activities. Arlington had everything that they wanted. They wanted to get back in with their club. They wanted to go on their trips. They wanted to take swimming at W L. They wanted to help with the we have them go into the school programs as aides in the public school system. There were just so many opportunities for them to get involved here that they moved back because they didn't want to miss out on anything. So we want to keep in touch with them, and we know that if they do have longer lives that we have a real challenge to keep them involved. INTERVIEWER: A responsibility as a community, I think. NARRATOR: Yes. And, of course, the other thing that I'm seeing here, and I'm experiencing it myself is that, you know, you need some resource to help you deal with a frail and aging relative. And it is not always easy to do that. And even me who thinks that I can organize and plan and keep people happy, I find that I get very frustrated with my aging mother who is not even a chronic kind of cranky person, but she has certain kinds of expectations of me that I feel are unrealistic, and how do you make her understand that I can't always be there for her every time. I still want her to be independent, and she still is trying very hard to become very dependent on me. So it's that kind of thing that I'm seeing that we need to look at, too. How do we reach the 60-year-olds who have 90-year-old parents? And the relationship between. I have a totally different relationship now with my mother than I did when I was 45. And how do you help people adjust to that? So I see through recreation, through social activities, through involvement that we really can help with that. But that's my philosophy. INTERVIEWER: And that's the future coming together. We'd like to talk about some of these different activities. Do you have a preference for one you'd like to start with or would you like to talk, let's say, about drama, the theater Arlington Players has been around for some time. NARRATOR: When I first came when I first became involved with the arts program, we had really what I'd call grass roots just community activities. They were not professional in nature at all with the exception of the symphony. I think the symphony has always had very high quality. But the children's theater was nothing more than a group of parents with their children, and, you know, the lovely little stars every parent thought they had a child prodigy and we would just have kind of general fun kinds of activities where we would just do them in the multi purpose room in school. But since that time the Children's Theater, the Arlington Players which is a community based drama group have become very well organized because the County and through again now I organized what was called a kind of an Arts Council group. We brought the heads of the organizations – the principle presidents and the technical people and all of those volunteers together and say how can we work together to mutually support each other at the same time not go and ask the County for too much support always maintaining for every dollar the County gave to the organization they had to raise a dollar. INTERVIEWER: Let me interrupt here. I think it's important that we state when and how the County your department became involved. NARRATOR: Well, at that time I would say we're talking about the year probably the year '66 when I then became the division chief. I had to play the major role in hiring a person to be arts administrator and setting up this council. I gave leadership to organizing a more structured program. INTERVIEWER: And when was this? NARRATOR: This would have probably been '66 or '67. And by doing that by setting up this program of the support groups – I think it was that year we did a study. There was a study done in the County about do we need more cultural facilities? And I remember Wilbert Fritz was very much involved in that study. And the County wanted very much to do it, but they couldn't find the money for this wonderful 6 million or 7-million-dollar facility. Actually they wanted to build it right here on the grounds adjacent to the library that was the site that they had chosen. But that was one of my bigger disappointments because I really thought we had the groups organized. We had them all working together, and we didn't get that facility. But about the same time along came the T.J. building where we had the opportunity to get a theater. But we got the groups behind that and we now have the facility, and the County has always taken the position that they would provide the facilities and the technical support and the guidance to help the groups help themselves. INTERVIEWER: You say "always" since 1966? NARRATOR: 1966 and even before that. I would say Arlington again is very has always been very supportive of the arts groups. I can't remember I think the symphony has just celebrated its 30th or 35th it was here before I came so I know it's been here longer than 30 years. INTERVIEWER: We've had an interview from Jean Taylor, and she told the story there. NARRATOR: Oh have you? So the groups have come together and have grown to right now we should be extraordinarily proud of what we have in terms of the cultural programs in Arlington. And I would say that with the symphony concerts and they've recently gotten a new conductor and he has raised the quality of the concerts tremendously. But that's because the boards of directors were well organized. They were able to raise the money. The County was there to give them some support. The Arlington Players have a fine series. The Fairlington Players which is another group that is kind of emerging they are not as good as the Arlington Players. The Children's Theater have high quality productions that are professional in nature. INTERVIEWER: The Arlington Players did "Fiorello" this summer? NARRATOR: Yes, they did. INTERVIEWER: Because we went really not expecting a great deal and we were astounded at the quality of the voices and the performance. The whole thing was extremely good, but we were quite surprised. NARRATOR: You really don't have to go to the Kennedy Center unless you really want to see some really big name stars. You can see quality performance right here. Now you're not going to see name performers, but quality performances I guarantee you are right here within the community. INTERVIEWER: This is all volunteer. NARRATOR: All volunteer. Well, I would say the people who are the artistic people those people are paid, but the amount of money they are paid is minimal when you really think about what they should be getting. INTERVIEWER: Now you say they're paid. Are they paid from County funds or are they paid from assessment of the members? NARRATOR: There is a combination of both. Again going back, Arlington has a tradition of partnership the partnership relationship. So, for example, the County would provide the rehearsal space. They would provide the theater, the amphitheater we've expanded the amphitheater. They would provide the technical people the ones that do the lighting and scenery and moving of equipment and that sort of thing and some equipment. And then the groups themselves and in some cases the County might pay, for example, in the case of the symphony, they would pay part of the conductor's salary something like 10 thousand or 12 thousand of the maybe $20,000 salary. Many of the Arlington Players none of their people are paid. They're all volunteers. But we provide them the place to build their scenery, the place to store their scenery that sort of thing so it's this partnership again partnership responsibility and working together. Now finally we've gotten the symphony and the chorus to work together. And the symphony and the ballet to work together. The symphony might play for the ballet productions. This whole working together which is no easy task, and recently I spent a whole year of my life working with the symphony in developing the criteria of where they wanted to go to get a new conductor. Their conductor had been here for a long time. And how you work together with people and get them to set goals and go through process. I would say that my skills and ability are really at working together with people and getting them to focus and to make things happen within different organizations. My disappointment and this I would say really came to a climax when we lost the opportunity to get this wonderful facility down in Crystal City the Pentagon City. That was a real disappointment for me. INTERVIEWER: That was what about 4 years ago? NARRATOR: That was about 4 years ago, and the groups, for some reason, the groups came together and they really wanted this, but whatever happened escaped me. I don't know if it was a political issue or what, but we really missed the opportunity of getting a very fine theater a concert hall. And I really think we need that. I understand maybe there is something coming up in the future for that. But we really do need a place a performing arts center. INTERVIEWER: Other than T.J. NARRATOR: Other than T.J. because that is used constantly. And it's great for drama productions. It is not good for musical productions. It's not good acoustically it does not accommodate. We're getting modifications to Gunston. And that's going to be another very, very nice, quiet, intimate theater for drama which we need but we still need a good quality concert hall. We really do need that. INTERVIEWER: Kenmore does not do the trick at all. NARRATOR: No, it doesn't although I was involved in going way back I was involved in helping the Opera Theater to get money to dig an orchestra pit. You know there's an orchestra pit there at Kenmore. That's where the opera used to give their productions. But that really is my disappointment. My joy and pride is in the fact that the groups have come such a long ways that people in the community have supported it, the County Board has given support to it the people in the community. I mean it takes individuals to be there and to give their time and to give their money and to make it work. INTERVIEWER: The volunteers. NARRATOR: The volunteers I mean over 2,000 people involved in that program. INTERVIEWER: And you also have to have the quality to draw the audience, too. NARRATOR: That's right. But it's giving it that leadership that makes them strive for the quality to set the goals and make things happen. INTERVIEWER: It makes it easier because of the remarkable sophistication and literacy of the community. NARRATOR: That's right. And I do attribute to that because just like, you know, the fact that we had a community television here. You know that environment has been top quality high quality environment that we work so well together. INTERVIEWER: Tell me in working together, tell us about the development of the Thomas Jefferson Community Center School and Community Center how that was worked out cooperation from all NARRATOR: At the time that that was developed and let me look here to see when that was it opened in 1972. At the time that T.J. was developed, you had a junior high school the Thomas Jefferson Junior High School was an old building that needed to be replaced. At the same time, we were also talking about a cultural facility. We were talking about maybe having a more comprehensive recreation center as well as having a swimming pool. Those were all ideas that were out in the community then. People were talking about them. So the only large, open space left was that tract of land where T.J. is. That was the only big space of land at all. INTERVIEWER: At Glebe Rd. and First St. NARRATOR: At Glebe Rd. As I recall, we put together INTERVIEWER: Van Mere property. NARRATOR: Yes, yes no that's not quite it, is it? Van Near. But anyway, I can't remember the name of the site but anyway that was the only open space tract of land that we had. And if I recall, we had a bond referendum to go forward for developing it for community space, and it failed. And the very next year we came back and had a bond referendum that dealt with having a school there and having the whole range of things there, and that just passed with overwhelming support. INTERVIEWER: But how did this develop? NARRATOR: Well, it developed because the County Board and the School Board put together a joint task force of community people and professional staff people, and I was a part of that, to look at how we could bring about a joint use facility. And they hired architects to come in, and we had, really the only time I've ever gone through what was called a charrette where they brought community leaders from all over the schools, the business, the civic associations and everybody and they had a whole day and a half session of what would you like to see? Not a single plan had even been thought of. And it took all of these ideas and the development and from that they had subcommittees and I know Grady Malone was he was like the president of the P.T.A. I think at that time at T.J. And all of these subcommittees came together, and then they developed their kind of individual of components of what they really wanted. We wanted the most modern school buildings. You know, school without walls was the big thing then. We wanted a wonderful theater, and the theater groups all of those organized theater groups came in and said this is what we want in a theater. And we had the swimming pool people we really wanted a swimming pool we had to cut costs later. We had all of these people coming together and saying in the community the people who lived right around the community how would you like this building to be situated so it doesn't impact the neighborhood environment that we have. INTERVIEWER: The sports NARRATOR: The sports people were there all of the organized sports leagues and everybody came together, and we had this charrette for a day and a half. Then the architects from Alexandria, Vosbeck and Vosbeck came back with a plan. And we had 2 or 3 more of these this went on for a whole year, the development of this project. And then, of course, we had the bond referendum that went out that passed overwhelmingly. So many people were involved they couldn't say no to it. They had so much INTERVIEWER: Do you remember how much the bond issue was? NARRATOR: 7 million dollars. INTERVIEWER: Except for the roof, which was a disaster, how, in your opinion has the thing worked? NARRATOR: It has worked beautifully for this reason the way the building is set up as the school population has diminished and mind you it was designed for 600 students, and I think currently they have less than 300 students in the building so as that has diminished the building was set up so that, for example, they used to have a woodworking shop for the school, and that's not used anymore so that has been converted to exclusive use for recreation. The theater there is a very minimal program in the theater in the school. The theater was designed to be a community theater, and it is used, believe me every day, every weekend. There is not a single time that that theater isn't being used. INTERVIEWER: For the theater or just for programs, meetings and things like that? NARRATOR: The theater. I would say, production wise, there is rarely a weekend that there something isn't going on there production wise. But there are also it's used for conferences and during the day. And they are some occasional Saturday or Sunday when it's not being used. The outside fields, the athletic fields are used, as you go and see them now particularly with the soccer we've had to re seed and have literally to take one of them out because there's no time when they're not on there so we had to put big boulders to keep them from going in and using the facility just so we'd have a chance for grass to grow again. So it is one of the most successful buildings that we have. INTERVIEWER: How is it organized that is you can't go in there and just use it, you have to go to the Park Service . . . NARRATOR: That is the one facility where you have to have a user card. That was another one of the supports from the community. They said rather than having this be completely subsidized let's bring in the revenue. And I think we're not we generate about 60% of what the operational costs are. INTERVIEWER: And how is that done? NARRATOR: You buy a card and pay an annual fee, and I think it's $35 seniors get a discount. And, in fact, the seniors, if they're going there for an activity we've always let them come in without charging them a fee. INTERVIEWER: Now does this apply to every individual? Does this apply to the athletes? NARRATOR: Yes, those people who come in they have to pay their portion of it if they're using that the organized program they have to pay a portion of that fee. INTERVIEWER: Now wait, you say a portion of it NARRATOR: For example, if you are in an organized sport basketball league, that team has to pay a fee so that they will have the use of their space when they're there. INTERVIEWER: But as far as drama is concerned or other use, is that an individual user fee? NARRATOR: No, they don't pay a user fee to be in the drama group to perform there. That's provided there. The fee is essentially to use the big gymnasium and to use the game room, the pool and ping pong and the woodworking and the arts part. INTERVIEWER: Now they go to your department and make NARRATOR: They go right there to the school to T.J. You go right there and buy your card right there. INTERVIEWER: No, but who makes appointments? NARRATOR: The scheduling? The Recreation Department. The center director there at T.J. schedules everything that goes on at T.J. INTERVIEWER: The director is there full time. NARRATOR: Full time, yes. There ae 30 full-time people that work there at T.J. INTERVIEWER: 30 full-time county employees? NARRATOR: Managing the center and the gymnasium INTERVIEWER: Not just with the school but with the other NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: At the time this was built I remember hearing that it was perhaps unique. Was that the case? NARRATOR: Indeed it was. It was the first of its kind on the east coast because as we developed that we talked about this charrette and the committee. The committee the oversight committee took trips around the country. We went all the way, I guess as far as Oklahoma to look at other possible facilities but the most unique thing about it was the acre and a half under one roof the big gym. And we were going to places to see where they had surfaces, different kinds of surfaces that we could use, and I would say that probably there are not very many like it now. There is one in Atlanta, Georgia that I know of, and there is one in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I think maybe there are several on the west coast that are similar to it. But again we are talking about an intermediate school, a community facility and a major theater those are the 3 components that make it unique. There are lots of big facilities like this, but they are usually on maybe college a college facility that is used as again a community facility once in a while. But we're talking about and when you asked about what has happened to it the use there are fewer students there now, but we have significant more senior adults. And you will see senior adults coming in there at 6:30 in the morning walking around that track. They use it all day long. They have the opportunity to have the food there because the school they can go in through the school line and get a school lunch if they want. INTERVIEWER: They can? NARRATOR: They can. INTERVIEWER: Any user can go in NARRATOR: Any user could do it, but we made the seniors aware of the fact that they can do that so you have the increased senior population using it plus the young adult population. The people who work here go over there and work out during the day. So we're reaching another young population the 35 to 45 who work in Arlington. That's another whole segment of our community that we've never really focused on until now and we're getting more and more of the corporate people coming here, and they love going over to the Y tennis, but they also like coming to T.J. because they can go in and they can work out. They can do their running. They have the saunas. They have the showers, and it's very convenient for them. Lots of military people come over. INTERVIEWER: Now they're individual users. NARRATOR: They are individual users, and they pay the fee – and if you are a non resident you have to pay a higher fee a significant INTERVIEWER: Oh, you do permit non residents to NARRATOR: We do, but they pay a higher fee. INTERVIEWER: How much? NARRATOR: At least double the fee. INTERVIEWER: Well, you must be servicing that by County employees for about 18 hours a day then. NARRATOR: That is correct, about that and 7 days a week. We're only closed on major holidays. In fact, we're not even closed on holidays because people every time we try to close, they want to go. So we're open holidays INTERVIEWER: You speak of someone running it 6 or 6:30 in the morning. That means there must be a County employee there to admit them. NARRATOR: That's right until 11 o'clock at night. INTERVIEWER: If you have something else on this you'd like to add, we'll get it right now otherwise I think you need a break. You've been talking for a good hour or more steadily, and we'll have to pick this up again so if you have something more you'd like to add on this particular subject either T.J. or we were talking originally about senior activities. NARRATOR: Well, just one other comment that maybe we can explore later if you want to. Arlington has always been on the leading edge and I don't think that I can tie it directly all to me – but we've been on the leading edge of doing taking risks and going out and doing things differently. And in terms of facilities, another one that would bear a little bit of discussion is our unique facility down at Aurora Hills where we have a fire station, a library and a rec center and an air monitoring station and a visitor's center. And T.J. was the first of that so you have that which is a unique facility, and then I think the whole idea of exploring a bit more about how we are now looking to the whole new population that is coming in, and by new population the limited English speaking as well as our new corporations and what that's bringing to us the urbanization what's happening. I would love to talk a little more about that. [narrator and interviewers break at this point] Part II of Constance McAdam interview INTERVIEWER: This is January 7, 1988. This is Cas Cocklin speaking for the Arlington County Library oral history program accompanied by Ed Campbell, and we are continuing our interview of Constance McAdam, chief of the Recreation Division of the Department of Parks, Recreation and Community Resources. We had an interesting discussion some 6 weeks ago in November, and we'd like to know a little more about the joint use of the schools. You told us a good deal about T.J. Thomas Jefferson how it was developed and what the uses are. We'd like to know about some of the others I think Aurora Hills is one. Could you tell us about that and perhaps Kenmore. NARRATOR: Yes, and also we'll follow up a little bit with Gunston as well. I think one of the more interesting in history here in Arlington has been the real commitment on the part of the public school system the School Board and the County Board in its commitment to the joint use of community facilities and we've had a long standing arrangement with the public school system on the joint use of facilities and as our population has shifted and changed recently our youth population is declining and still is declining then it was important to take a look at how we could use public school, and also look at joint use of other public facilities as well. So, of course, T.J. was the first as I mentioned before was the first of the joint use facilities. And Gunston has been since 1978 has not been an intermediate school, but the County uses three fourths of the space there. There's the adult education program which has all of its main offices and most of its classes there, but the remainder of the facility has been used for the cultural arts program and for the community center. INTERVIEWER: This is about one fourth, you say. NARRATOR: About two thirds of the building is leased and operated by the County. INTERVIEWER: We had a little mix up on the amount of space that the county takes in Gunston. Connie, do you want to clarify this? Is it 3/4 or is it 2/3? NARRATOR: It is 2/3, and I was incorrect by saying 3/4 at the beginning. Two thirds of the building is leased by the County. So that 1/3 is used by adult ed, and roughly another 1/3 is used by the community recreation center which includes the gymnasium, the senior adult program we have a nutrition site there as well as some classroom space and preschool space. And then the other third of the facility is used by the arts program, and within that it is the major support area for all the arts programs. All of the costumes are built there. All of the sets are built there. We use the shops, the former shops from the intermediate school. The costumes we have a costume shop with some 5 or 6 sewing machines and a group of 5 or 10 people can go down there and sew all the costumes. We store much of the costumes and sets there. And then we have the other support space of the other staff. There are 3 or 4 joint offices for the organizations such as the symphony or the metropolitan chorus, the dance group INTERVIEWER: Oh, maintain their offices at Gunston. NARRATOR: They can have space there. So that has become a support to the organizations as well. INTERVIEWER: Does this include phone service, too? NARRATOR: It does include phone service. So they have the space there, and the volunteers can go and man the offices at that space. Now the symphony was there for a while. Recently it has found that it would rather have a more central location, and they've gotten space in the Rosslyn area. But they may come back to Gunston because it's very hard to get free space out in the community for any long period of time. So that support is there. So recently we have a bond referendum in which the County voters approved 1.8 million dollars to renovate and update that Gunston facility to become a more valuable facility. The upgrading will include air conditioning of the theater there. There is a 600 seat theater. It was an old intermediate school auditorium that will be renovated and theater seats put in. There will probably end up having about 400 good seats with acoustically sound auditorium. The stage will be improved, and all of the technical lighting facilities will be INTERVIEWER: Has the work begun on that? NARRATOR: No, not yet. The contracts have just been let. So this is really very current, but again the County's continuing commitment to using joint use facilities is there and we will be moving ahead on that and we hope by the end of next year to have the renovations done. INTERVIEWER: Will this bring it up to more professional standards? NARRATOR: Yes, it will. I don't know if you've been to any of the performances there, but it's like going to a junior high school. The seats are the same old kind of wooden seats that were made for kids, and so yes it will be more professional. There will be more adult seats in it. And the lighting and the sound system will be more professional. INTERVIEWER: Was this an effort by the County to perhaps provide a substitute for the lack of development of the theater at Pentagon City although I realize that was somewhat a different NARRATOR: Absolutely no doubt about it. When we lost that option of working out something in Pentagon City then this was the County's way of giving us a small kind of theater for the drama programs. We do have a pretty good house at T.J., but this will be a smaller, more intimate theater. There is still a big need in the County for a concert hall for the symphony and for the chorus. But, and this is a little bit of an aside, but now the Northern Virginia Community College is contemplating building a regional kind of facility with a thousand seat hall, and I think the County INTERVIEWER: Where? NARRATOR: At the Alexandria campus which is just past Bailey's Crossroads which is really not all that far. And there is no good thousand seat all in this area I mean in the Virginia area. There are some in D.C., but anyway back to the Gunston. The other renovation and upgrading will take place in the gymnasium. We have a very find gymnastics program there, but we'll still operating in kind of a gymnasium space so that will be upgraded. There will be improvement to the community center part of the facility where the senior adult come. We do have a senior center there, and it's a nutrition site. And just getting things like a decent kitchen where we can prepare the meals and serve the meals and get some more convenient space for them to have lectures and to have their meals and to have counseling and that kind of thing we'll be improving that as well as making the outdoors much more attractive. We have no landscaping there now. The public school system has always been pretty meager on landscaping any of their buildings. They keep them looking like school sites, and we want it to look more like a community center and more like a cultural facility so there will be major landscaping. There will be major improvement to the parking. INTERVIEWER: What is the parking there how extensive how many NARRATOR: Well, presently I think there are only about 280 spaces, and we hope to add another 150 spaces. And then there is the plan. In the plan in the future, if we wanted to build a parking structure which would go back into the kind of hillside there which would really not making it surface parking. We've got enough surface parking as we need. We'd like to get something that's kind of either a tiered parking or whatever if the County decides it wants to go in that direction. So there is a commitment to making the joint use of Gunston a long term commitment, and, in fact, the School Board and the County Board will be negotiating that commitment very soon within the next month there will be a resolution that will commit Gunston to the County's use till the year 2000. INTERVIEWER: It's still under the School Board, is that right? NARRATOR: Yes, it is. INTERVIEWER: I see. So it is not intended that it be part of this proposed capital improvement plan that's being talked about. NARRATOR: That is correct. It becomes a community issue. The community has already voted capital improvement, if you will, to Gunston through this bond referendum from the County side, but it will not be a part of the school bond referendum because the schools don't really consider that a school building anymore. INTERVIEWER: Why wasn't it transferred to the County. I thought these things were usually transferred to the County or disposed of. NARRATOR: They were, and I think that although I think I have my ear pretty much to the political situation in the County is that somehow there seems to be the thought that babies may become popular again, and there will be more children again and with our new populations which will be maybe this is the bridge to be talking about with our new populations there seem to me with the Hispanics and others there are more children and so they are seeing the potential rise of increased numbers of young people. So that the student population may grow to the point that they need that school back again. And they don't want to lose that resource. It's one of the best locations in the south end of the County. INTERVIEWER: That location is quite NARRATOR: Absolutely and that's where the growth in the numbers seems to be occurring in South Arlington. INTERVIEWER: That's the only I mean Kenmore is south Arlington, but just on the line and T.J. is really they're both on the line. NARRATOR: That's right. So I think that politically the School Board doesn't want to give up that facility because (a) it is a very, very solid good facility it has a good heating system – it needs some work on its roof, but it's really a good facility and secondly it is the major one in that end of the County, and they don't want to give up the option of having to take it back as a school. So you have somewhat of conflicting goals here because we also do not have a major cultural facility and a major community center in that area. It is the only one in that part of the County. So it will be interesting as the years go along to see what prevails. I suspect with this level of commitment to that facility that it will remain a community facility always. We will have some use of that school regardless. It may revert back to the arrangement we have at T.J., for example, where we have committed space but at the same time it's an intermediate school. So that, I think, covers the Gunston situation. Now let's for a minute talk about Aurora Hills and how that came about. INTERVIEWER: Which is in the same area. NARRATOR: Which is in the same area and at the time that the County decided on a County community facility that needed to be built they were looking at the need for a fire station, a library and a small recreation center that was closer to the Crystal City area, and that was before we had the commitment for the use of Gunston and we also had limited space down there, and it's sitting on a gold mine that area is really, you know, next to the big tract of land that was the Pentagon City tract of land. So the County decided that it would enter into an agreement to build all three together to make the best of the use. So you do have a branch library there small but INTERVIEWER: Agreement with who? NARRATOR: With the libraries, with the fire department and with the County parks and recreation agency. INTERVIEWER: It certainly seems to be busy in the evening. That's the only time I've been there. NARRATOR: Yes, it really is. And, of course, you can imagine the battles that were going on between Jane Nida and us on who was going to have the larger of the space there and Jane won! Jane Nida, the former Director of Libraries. That was a lot of fun because Jane was absolutely insisting on having, and rightfully so because I think that in reality the library there there was just no library space at all down there, and it is heavily used and is operated, I believe, 7 days a week now. So we have what I would call a very, very small kind of neighborhood recreation space nothing more than a very large kitchen and kind of a multipurpose room where there is a small ping pong table. It really can't serve more than 50 or 100 people at a time effectively. But it has been a real resource to that community in that they can come there and find out other things to do. We have a very strong senior adult program. Many of the seniors it's close to a senior center I mean Camelot Hall which is down in that area. We've reached out to kind of to assist in the programming of the major ballfields that are close by. We have a major ballfield complex so it has worked well. And the fire station nobody ever thought that a library and a fire station could exist in the same building because you know libraries are supposed to be nice and quiet and the fire station is just real loud every once in a while, you know. And the community really came to support the whole multi use concept at Aurora Hills. So it's worked very effectively. The fire do a lot of their training there. They also maintain some of the outside of the buildings although I understand that's going to be changing now. We're not going to be able to ask firemen anymore to mow the lawn on the outside or to do little things around. We're becoming very sophisticated. That's just an aside. But anyway we have built, I think, a good family relationship there. So once that got started then along came a real interest in the Visitor Commission and where were you going to have a visitor site you know a welcome center, and guess what happened. The only space they could find was the lobby of the Aurora Hills complex so they have stuck the visitor's center in the library there close to 395, quite close to the Crystal City area and actually it has worked reasonably well although I do believe in the long run where it ought to be is more central, perhaps in this new Gateway Park that will be developed in Rosslyn. INTERVIEWER: How is that used? NARRATOR: Visitors who come off of I66 you know when you're riding along the center you see "Visitor's Center Welcome to Virginia" or "Welcome to Arlington" so any traveler or tourist who comes in town can go there. They can find out about hotels. They will call. INTERVIEWER: I've always felt it's not a very good location. NARRATOR: It's a terrible location. INTERVIEWER: You need to have something that is right adjacent. You just peel off from one of the major highways. Does your department service it all day? NARRATOR: No, this is a part of the Visitor Commission which is under the Economic Development Department. So that brings in another agency that's using it. So you have the Visitor's Center which is there, and it's operating and I'd say having reasonable success but it could have a lot greater success. INTERVIEWER: Is it serviced by volunteers? NARRATOR: No, they have a paid staff. And they're there 7 days a week. Then along came the need for about that same time a need for having a place where they could install air quality monitoring a monitoring system where they could test the air and what the quality of the air is, and they didn't know where to put that and it only took a little space almost as big as a closet and guess what? They crammed that in there, too. So now we have the state of Virginia that has an air monitoring service there. We have the visitor's center. We have a library. We have a recreation center, and we have a fire station. INTERVIEWER: And it's not a very big building. NARRATOR: It is not, no! It is, you know, about as big as your old house or a little bit bigger than a big house, a big single family house. It's not really that large at all. Only 2 fire trucks although on the fire truck side now they have the most interesting fire truck the biggest in the whole area because of the Crystal City. INTERVIEWER: For the high rises. NARRATOR: Yes. They have this wonderful new truck that cost many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars that has this really ladder on it. INTERVIEWER: I suspect, millions. NARRATOR: Yes, probably. So with Aurora Hills and the multi use of Aurora Hills then that is certainly changing and still is very successful. I want to talk a little bit about other uses of public schools, and we've just recently taken our revised, joint use policy back to the School Board, and they'll be voting on it, as a matter of fact, tonight. Today's Thursday, right? Tonight is the night that they will be voting on the upgraded joint use reaffirmation of the joint use. That includes schools like Kenmore where the symphony plays. That facility, if you've ever attended a concert there, is again another intermediate school hall, and acoustically it is not the most awful I've been in, but it certainly is far from being a good hall and just the inconvenience of having to rearrange the lighting and rearrange the acoustical back holes for everything for every concert, there's just an awful lot that has to go there. Plus the fact that the symphony, now, with its new conductor and with its revitalized board who are really going out and making a big difference, the symphony has gotten too big for the stage. It just simply cannot use the stage anymore. So again, the question that we'll be facing in the community is, is there going to be a concert hall that will be built by the County? Will the one that the Northern Virginia Community College is going to be building become the concert hall or do we look at making major modifications through another school facility? So that's really a question for the future. Many corporations and developers who are now coming to Arlington and making new requests and have new ideas maybe they could be encouraged to also consider the possibility of a concert hall although we did not have such good luck before when we were thinking about doing something in the Crystal City area, but maybe in the Rosslyn, Clarendon area there might be more of a possibility. But we still do use the Kenmore as the major home for the symphony. It is under our joint use policy and that works very well. INTERVIEWER: You spoke about corporations, and one of the things we had talked about before we started recording was the change in Arlington with the many newcomers all the foreign born and the large influx of corporations including many major corporations – some Fortune 500 corporations and this has had an impact on your thinking in terms of recreation and parks. Could you tell us about that? NARRATOR: Yes. Talk about the multi cultural or many different populations the new populations and that effect. What we did about 4 years ago was to hire a specialist who happens to speak Spanish and has a tie in to the Hispanic community, but also has worked very closely with the Asians and the Oriental community in developing ways in which we can reach out to these newcomers. The first barrier that they encounter, of course, is the language barrier so one of the major thrusts has been to at least put our publications out in one of two different languages so at least the people can understand what we have to offer and how we can INTERVIEWER: What languages do you use? NARRATOR: Laotian, Cambodian, Vietnamese and Spanish those are the major ones. INTERVIEWER: No middle eastern no Arabic NARRATOR: No, not at this point, we haven't. INTERVIEWER: Connie, that's a mixed bag, isn't it? Isn't there a danger of their not trying to learn English? NARRATOR: I would say that's probably true with the older people. It's been extraordinarily difficult for us to reach out to the senior adults because they just simply don't want to bother learning any language. But with the young people that isn't so true because within the public school system they really do have to learn English, and they then become the major means of communication with the rest of the family. INTERVIEWER: So you do not think this is a backward action as far as amalgamation into the community is concerned. NARRATOR: No, I really don't. I think that we're going to have with us in the future many different languages, and people are just going to have to have respect for that. I see our language changing because we're already picking up on lots of the INTERVIEWER: Well, actually, if these folders that you have, or pamphlets, are telling about courses which in themselves are helping the people to enter into the American life on shopping, on diet, and of course English, I guess NARRATOR: Yes. It helps them we look at it as an acculturation process because and it's best done in a setting where they are having some other traditional games and activities or at their family get togethers because many of them have strong family ties. So if you have a community center where the whole family can come together and learn about the community through that partly in their native language also in English we always reinforce it by having a person use English in that setting. INTERVIEWER: This would be a multi group community center where you would have people from various nationalities. NARRATOR: That's right. We've developed our outreach program has evolved into what we're calling international clubs, and in that international club you may have 5 or 6 different groups of people coming together and sharing their national heritage, talking about their cultural sharing and understanding their cultural lives as well as finding out about what's going on in Arlington. The other interesting thing, and I think the most exciting thing, is that even in our cultural programs our activities that we're providing has made it much more reasonable for them to do programs of say the Spanish background use some of the Spanish artists or use some of the music that might be of interest to that group or the Vietnamese or the Asians so the whole broad cultural program our arts and drama groups and everything have changed to reflect what we have in the community. INTERVIEWER: You do not encourage national groupings? NARRATOR: No, we have encouraged broad representative mix of the cultural diversity in Arlington. It seems to be working very, very well. We've started at the neighborhood level, and obviously it's going to reflect people who live by our recreation centers. Now there are not very many pockets in the community where you don't find foreign born now. Maybe up north it's maybe the only place where I've not seen very many in our recreation center at Madison where we have that's in the Country Club Hills and that area. INTERVIEWER: We have 2 or 3 in my own little subdivision. NARRATOR: That's right. So really there are not very many places that you go that you don't find them. So we see that as a way of making our community a much more interesting community and a way that we can help those that are coming here find their ways around to the activities and the leisure activities. We also see a broadening of the experience of those people who have lived here for a long time who maybe have never known about some of the games and activities and leisure pursuits. INTERVIEWER: Tell me the demarcation between what schools are doing and what your department is doing what Human Resources, the Department of Human Resources is doing. Do you clarify your particular aim so that you're not duplicating effort? NARRATOR: Well, the best that I can say is that there's a lot of coordination. In the school systems, for example, their target there besides in the classroom the education in the classroom their target there has been with the parents, in reaching the parents. And sometimes that's very, very difficult because many of them are working in 2 positions, 2 jobs and so educating the parents through the P.T.A. effort has not been all that successful. So we work together with the principals in different schools and say well we are able somehow to reach them because we have activities on Sundays or we have them late in the week. We have them at times when they do find the opportunity – or take the opportunity to come to our programs and we're saying you can come to our activities, and we can also reinforce the kinds of things in the school system. There's lots of coordination. In terms of the Department of Human Services, if they identify through their systems individuals that need special assistants in our recreation program, we designate a certain amount of numbers of slots in say the camp program in the summer where we make sure those people are served. So there is cross communication between all the agencies so that we're not duplicating effort. The County, now, the manager's office has hired an overall coordinator who is looking at the County programs as a whole and that seems to be working well. I have great fear of having coordinators of coordinators, you know. And I think we can become too bureaucratic, and we've tried to avoid that. For example, we have just one person who is managing this program. What we are focusing on is training each one of our center directors to have this outlook of broad range involvement of all segments of the community. And these international clubs introduce that so every center understands and appreciates how you work with the different organizations. We train people in the acculturation process instead of setting up a whole separate program just for that population. They are indeed being integrated into our existing system. I have a strong commitment to that, and I hope that will obtain but we are reaching them in the cultural program. In the sports program, for example, one we have not been able to separate out is soccer. Soccer is such an international sport a popular sport among the Hispanic that we had some 10 teams that came together, and they just simply wanted to play other Hispanic teams because they have a different value of the game than our American soccer players. So we do provide them with the opportunity of coming together and that's been kind of interesting. But, other than that, we really do try to get them into all of the sports. And you'll see our little league teams there will be 2 or 3 Hispanics and 2 or 3 Asians on the team as well as not having one team playing the other that's the rule. We really do enforce that. INTERVIEWER: How much has this increased your budget? NARRATOR: Last year the County Board, of course, is very interested in this and last year we got the $180.000 in our budget to begin this program to begin the training, to begin the establishment of the international clubs and hire the coordinator and at this point we also have an assistant so we have one who is working out of the community which probably will go away we think will go away at the end of the 2 years. We're really fighting the expanding of the bureaucracy, but when you think about the numbers of people we're trying to serve for example, in the month of October which the County Board declared as International Month this past October we had over 50 different festivals and dances and open houses focused on that, and we had 5,000 people. Well, you can't do that with just one person. You really need to have more of a coordination on that. So right now we had the increase of that amount of money to our budget, and in our new budget we're going forward with now linking up transportation support to that program because that is one of the major problems is getting people from place to place. We do not have we have 2 vans, and they are dedicated to, you know, 15 different recreation centers so we want to expand our transportation system to be able to assist with this program. So I'd say it's coming along very well. What I think has happened more than anything else is that the money that we already have in our budget, in our recreation centers and in our major programs has simply been shifted to incorporate them into the program. It really doesn't take that much more money. It just takes more of a different mindset and a different planning to include them in the program to modify what program activities are offered as opposed to getting more money because the facilities are there. The staff is there. The people who live there they can reach and come out into the program. So I'd say we're doing very well on that. And just another aside, Eduardo Burton who is our staff person got an outstanding employee award this year. The County Manager recognizes people 12 people in the County, and he was one of them so we're very proud of that program, and we did get some good public recognition of that. INTERVIEWER: Let me interject something here. Arlington is doing so much for Asians and Hispanic groups in comparison with other areas of Washington Metropolitan Community that I suppose it is increasing the immigration, shall I call it, into Arlington of those groups, is it not? NARRATOR: Well, we certainly had a big influx at the beginning. In fact, I've heard at some point that we were the second highest of percentage of Asian outside of Orange County, California, I think. So indeed we do have that, and now we're beginning to see the second or third wave of people coming because they're here, and they still have relatives back in wherever and they're telling about how great it is to be in Arlington. So we're seeing a third wave. Now where the concentration of people are coming are from Bolivia and that area. So I think we'll see significant increases in the Hispanic INTERVIEWER: The more we do NARRATOR: The more we do, the more attractive we become the more we attract. That is true. So philosophically, I guess, the County will have to face this big issue of where do we draw the line. INTERVIEWER: Well, they probably won't face it until some big budget crunches come up 'till we have a recession and taxes go down, and the income level goes down and NARRATOR: I hear that we have a tight budget year coming up so we'll see what happens. INTERVIEWER: But it does markedly change the demographics of Arlington in comparison with other Washington metropolitan areas, does it not? NARRATOR: Yes, it does. INTERVIEWER #2: Well, I think all Washington metropolitan areas have been changes quite a bit even Montgomery County has great influx in its lower county schools of Orientals. INTERVIEWER: Not the District of Columbia though so much. INTERVIEWER #2: The District has a very high Hispanic population. I don't know how high its Oriental population is. NARRATOR: The Asian I don't think is as great. INTERVIEWER: Well, unless you have something else to say, let's move on to another influx into Arlington with the development of Rosslyn, Crystal City, and, of course, the corridors that emanate along those lines and that's the development the building of new office buildings and the influx of new corporations. Some of them, as I said earlier, a couple of them, I believe Fortune 500 companies. What has this meant to your department? NARRATOR: I think this probably is where, you know, our hope of the future because I do think when these new corporations come into Arlington, they very much want to have a role in what happens, particularly for their employees who are working there. But beyond that and I think the County Board and the County has created a climate in which they've said if you're going to be coming here, in addition to causing more traffic and more confusion, let's give you an opportunity to contribute to the quality of life within the community. So such things as the opening of some of their existing space for art galleries which we have absolutely no art galleries at all in Arlington except the Arlington Art Center which is a very small . They're beginning to look at the use of their facilities to support some of the cultural needs. They are also have been very, very generous to us with our outdoor amphitheater series, for example. We have 2 major musical productions as well as lots of concerts. They have been very supportive of that so they are giving corporate dollars you know $5,000 to underwrite a major production. INTERVIEWER: Now they are gifts to Arlington County for a specific purpose NARRATOR: They can give them to Arlington County specifically or they can give them to the individual groups. I will cite again the symphony who has been very successful in getting corporate support. INTERVIEWER: Those would have to be groups that are recognized as charitable groups under the internal revenue code. NARRATOR: That is correct. That's right. So you have several different supports. You have the direct dollar contribution. You also have the use of the facility itself. For example, in many of the lobbies or if you had boardrooms or if you had other kinds of spaces that would lend itself to activities, we have used that. We have the summer outdoor concert series down in Rosslyn. Admittedly, it probably reaches the people who work there more than the people who live here, but they, after all, that's a significant population and the daytime population is something like 230,000 where our nighttime population our living population is about 150,000. So we have significant new people to reach. And we feel we have a commitment to those people who work in Arlington. So reaching those people through the use of corporate facilities is another whole area that we really haven't begun to use. INTERVIEWER: What about the flip side of that? What about not only what they can do for you but what you can do for them in terms of classes or in terms of lunchtime facilities, recreation, physical ed and what not for their employees? Is there any of that being developed? NARRATOR: Yes, there has been. We, in fact, T.J. which has the indoor gym and whatever we offer a corporate pass for those – they can buy a fee for 10 or 11 of their employees, and some of them have already arranged for carpools and have their little jitney buses take the people they're coming from the Crystal City area I'm sorry not Crystal City, Rosslyn because Rosslyn is closer to T.J. We hope that in the future when we get Gunston renovated that the Crystal City people will be able to come to Gunston and use that facility. INTERVIEWER: Did you say because I think it's significant and I'd like emphasize it in connection with this that the daytime population of Arlington is now greater than the nighttime population? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: That's a great reversal from years ago. It's bound to have been only recently INTERVIEWER #2: Well, I don't know what you mean by recently, but I'd say in the last 15 years or something like that. NARRATOR: That's right. INTERVIEWER: More people coming into Arlington then than are going out. NARRATOR: In terms of the daytime population, there are employment centers many of these new development are employment centers as opposed to residential. INTERVIEWER: Do you know when that changed? NARRATOR: It surely started back, I would say, at least 15 years ago when the redevelopment of Crystal City began. INTERVIEWER: It started, but it didn't get a majority NARRATOR: But now we're talking major influx now with the whole development of the Rosslyn Ballston corridor that's going to be . So the other thing we're looking at, and I think we really haven't fully analyzed the impact of the new corporations that are coming into the County. One that we are anticipating with great excitement is the Courthouse Plaza. There we will have the opportunity for a hotel, a (?) building, a shopping center and a theater. So INTERVIEWER: Though not performing arts. NARRATOR: No, it's a movie theater. But even movie theaters may in the long run become important for us with our whole video world and what we're doing in terms of offering classes or activities. That may become a place where we can reach that population. So we haven't touched the surface, but it is significant, and I think that as we develop the Rosslyn Ballston corridor and as we have further development Pentagon City and those areas that just brings us into this whole urbanization or Arlington. We have many different cultures now, but we're going to be viewing Arlington, and although John Milliken who is our new chairman of the County Board wants to focus on Arlington's parks he doesn't want us to forget that we are a community that does have a good park system. We do still have some very, very specialized open spaces and use of open spaces. I think what we really are trying to fight off is that we don't want to become known as a community of just high rise buildings and canyons and people who are coming here just to work and then leaving and leaving a vacant, dull community when they go home in the evening. We want to keep it vital and vibrant, and the mixed use of those corporate headquarters or facilities will keep it that way. INTERVIEWER: Let me interrupt for just a minute. When I first came to Arlington, over 50 years ago, Arlington was known, of course, as a bedroom community. A majority, certainly a substantial majority, of the people actually got their employment in the District of Columbia and only service employees in the Arlington area. That kept on for many years. Arlington, you might say, was a weekend community. You have spoken of the urbanization of Arlington that means that the trend is really becoming has been reversed and more people are coming into Arlington than are going out by day. NARRATOR: That does seem to be the trend, and I think what the County Board and this community is really facing right now is how do you keep the balance? We want to keep the balance because with the young urban the yuppies if you will the young professionals who come here, and they enjoy living in Arlington because it is extraordinarily convenient to live next to the Metro. They can work anywhere in the area. But they also value the quality of the services that are provided in Arlington including the leisure services which has always contributed significantly to making Arlington a great place to live and to work. We want to keep that. So there has to be a balance of how many more corporations do you want to come in here, employment centers, if you will, and the balance of making sure that we also have affordable housing for people and the whole range of affordable housing for me runs the whole range for those who are economically deprived as well as the middle income people because these days it's hard for even middle income people to find housing in Arlington. So that will be a challenge for the future. INTERVIEWER: I have one question that is not very profound, but it keeps cropping up each year and that's the use of the playing fields. There are so many teams particularly baseball, but I daresay football and soccer teams, too trying to use a limited number of fields and there is the question of who is an Arlington resident is it a corporation who pays taxes here in Arlington? Can its company teams corporate teams play or is it based purely on Arlington permanent residents who have their homes here? How is that worked out? NARRATOR: Well, we have a policy now for adult teams. Let me tell you about policy for the children first because the focus is that all youth teams in Arlington have to be 100% Arlington. So the youth of the community have the priority on the use of the fields and in terms of service. Interestingly enough, with the decline of the youth population, we sometimes have to have teams from other jurisdictions come in to have fair competition in some instances because we can't even field enough football teams, for example. So a team from Falls Church or a team from Fairfax will come in to play in Arlington and then we would go there. But all the teams have to be 100 percent Arlington. INTERVIEWER: Youth is what age 16? NARRATOR: Yes, age 16. So then when it comes to the adult sports teams and softball and soccer are the two these are the most incredibly popular sports in that area they must have 75 percent Arlington residents. Now the County Board had to modify that recently to include you either live or work in Arlington. Now that does open up the question of we're trying again looking at the people who work here as the people who live here. So when you do that it just opens the floodgates, and we have had to turn away teams. We are still turning away teams because we do have a limited resource with our fields, and they're used to much we can't even let the grass grow. INTERVIEWER: There's difference between a person who merely works in Arlington presumably buys his lunch and maybe buys a few things and corporate team and the corporation either owns their building or at least they are paying taxes in Arlington. It seems to me they have a priority over people who merely work in Arlington. NARRATOR: Yes, and we have not begun to see that pressure. I predict that pressure will come, but the pressure can come from any place it wants to. INTERVIEWER: Wasn't there a problem with the Navy? NARRATOR: Yes, that's right, and that was resolved because they did not allow them to come in. The Navy was based in Washington, and they wanted their teams to come to Arlington to play, and there was a team in Crystal City, but they wanted to bring the whole Navy and have them play in Arlington the whole Navy league. And the answer was no to that. That was a tough one, a very tough one, but the answer was no. INTERVIEWER: I take it that you propose to change your priorities so that the demand is not too great. NARRATOR: That's right, and there has been some talk in other jurisdictions they now have 100 percent for all their adults you have to have 100 percent of the teams either live or work in Arlington. Now we have 75, and I dare say, most of the teams are almost 100 percent because you get the message, the teams get the message that they would rather and besides which we are still turning away teams, and it's very easy for us to scan the rosters and see if you have a team from, you know for example, a bank team that may have other banks from other jurisdictions and we are able to say no to that. We give the priority to Arlington people. But where we are going to be facing serious problems, and that is how do we take fields out of service so that we can refurbish them and get them back again. And I don't think anything like artificial surface is real answer either, because I think artificial surface is much too costly and it probably is more dangerous than natural surface. INTERVIEWER: Now this brings another problem when you mention danger. What about insurance? NARRATOR: The County is self insured, and we've been fortunate. We have not had suit, a major suit, which I think is attributable to good supervision, good maintenance, good I think we are committed to making sure that our equipment is safe and that we have good supervision of activities. But it is becoming increasingly difficult to get providers of service to come in. For example, having a group of people come in and do the carnival kind of . . . {tape defective} . . . bond before they can come in, and not all corporations and companies can do that so the whole risk management issue has caused the County many, many more dollars because we're self insured. We haven't had any fortunately haven't had any major suits, but that could become a problem. Other jurisdictions have had to we don't have swimming pools, but I think even in our own public pools we have low boards some jurisdictions have had to give up their high boards. They've had to take out lots of playground equipment. They've had to make major changes in the slides and those kinds of things, but as of yet that really hasn't affected us except that it has cost the County more in order to be self insured and to take the risk of all of that. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any other comments? Are there any areas that you'd like to add to or cover that . . .? NARRATOR: No just to say that our commitment has and always will be to serving the people in the community. Our focus obviously has always been to serve those that are in most need. That has been our priority. But with a community that is so diverse now we are looking forward to making the decisions about what we do and how we do it become more neighborhood focused, and I think that will preserve the natural neighborhood that the County Board INTERVIEWER: You need very much as a community that is more urban you need to NARRATOR: And the Futures Report refers to that, and, of course, Mr. Milliken and his new year as chairman of the Board has focus on that, and I think that's where we'll be going keeping neighborhoods involved. INTERVIEWER: This brochure which you have recently handed me a few minutes ago entitled "Better Living in Arlington" is that prepared by your department? NARRATOR: Yes, it was prepared by our department, and I will take major credit for that one. That's a piece that I've given a lot of my time and effort to the last 6 months. INTERVIEWER: And you say that Mr. Milliken is the new chairman of the County Board? NARRATOR: Yes, and his theme for the year is "Arlington Outdoors." He wants to be sure that people know about our bike system, our parks we have over 800 acres of park land. We have lots of neighborhood, small parks INTERVIEWER: Mini parks. NARRATOR: Mini parks. He's very interested in having the beautification of all of our outdoor areas as well as looking at and we will be having in Rosslyn a gateway park. You know, whether you realize it or not that park is going to be there's going to be trees planted there, and there's going to be a water wall, and there are going to be opportunities for concerts and various it is supposed to be completed by the end of this year in July, and they're looking for the dedication to be next fall. INTERVIEWER: This is the area above the freeway? NARRATOR: The area above the freeway is going to be Arlington's gateway park in Rosslyn. We don't know the name of it yet. So that will be the theme, and I think we'll see more of those kind of urban parks. INTERVIEWER: I think Arlington is certainly fortunate in having not only a dedicated but as alert and imaginative and creative a person as you working the department. This has been an eye opener, I think, for both of us, and I'm sure it will be for anybody else who listens to this or reads the transcript, and we certainly thank you for coming back a second time, giving us so much of your time. NARRATOR: Thank you. The pleasure was mine. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Constance McAdam, April 20, 1992, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County Department of Parks and Recreation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Constance McAdam, regarding her life and her experience in the Arlington County Parks and Recreation Department. Interviewers are Edmund Campbell and Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance McAdam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20-Apr-92 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mcadamc19920420.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1950s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/1a7703df8b3e093a1422af15844b27b4.mp3 5cda282dc78117d1b6443e225e770a86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Integrated Dances Clip - Oral History with Constance McAdam, April 20, 1992 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Constance McAdam on April 20, 1992, regarding her reflections of coordinating integrated dances in through the Parks and Recreation Department. Interviewers are Edmund Campbell and Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance McAdam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20-Apr-92 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mcadamc19920420_Integrated Dances Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c346d80ddb71d6ce6e96ad1a50eb483c.pdf db6fb470070312ff2d0639a9a7229b96 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Program NARRATOR: Constance McAdam INTERVIEWER 1: Cas Cocklin INTERVIEWER 2: Ed Campbell DATE: November 20, 1987 Integrated Dances Clip INTERVIEWER 1: Now what was one of your main [00:09:00] concerns at that time? NARRATOR: At that time, the integration of the schools occurred in 1959, and one of my major thrusts when I first came here was bringing together from particularly from the youth and the teen point of view an atmosphere and an environment in which people could come together and play and enjoy each other in a meaningful way. INTERVIEWER 1: You're talking about a Negro, as it was then, community and the white community. NARRATOR: Yes, we had a Negro section within the department, and all of those activities were headed by Negro staff. There was INTERVIEWER 1: Who was the individual in charge? NARRATOR: Mr. Johnson, Ernest Johnson was the head of that program. And, by the way, he is still living in the community. One of the things that I was primarily responsible for in that [00:10:00] time was the playground program and the teen program within the recreation centers and how to bring them together and integrate them. And I did that by getting representatives from the various communities and recreation centers, bringing them together, involving them, letting them discuss the issues and how to deal with those issues. Bringing people together and we would plan dances with the teens particularly. INTERVIEWER 1: That must have posed some problems. NARRATOR: It did. We had to get the police involved. We had good support from the police although at that time there were no black policeman. We got some of the principals involved. One of the ones that I think about is Bill Young who was the principal at McKinley. We got parents. We looked to the community organizations such as the Links Organization which has been around a long time, and we got the leaders of these organizations [00:11:00] both black and white to come together and form a group of concerned parents to work together. INTERVIEWER 1: Were there problems working with them or was there lots of good will? NARRATOR: There was some apprehension at the beginning, but it really didn't take very long for us to come together because it was in a setting where it was important for the social action to take place. INTERVIEWER 2: Connie, you used the word "we," were you a spearhead of that? NARRATOR: I spearheaded much of that because that was my area of responsibility. Mr. Richardson who was the Director obviously gave me lots of support. There was another man that I worked with his name was Mr. Edsel Martz who was my supervisor. I am an aggressive person who just gets satisfaction from that kind of role. I had previous experience as a convener. INTERVIEWER 1: [00:12:00] You were trained in this field whereas you said Mr. Richardson was involved as coach and I know Edsel Marks was a coach. These people did not have the training. NARRATOR: Yes, I was indeed the first person the County hired with the training and background in recreation administration. I was one of the first women administrators INTERVIEWER 1: How did these dances turn out, for instance, because there is usually a little more tension there than there is in other activities? NARRATOR: During the first year there was a lot of tension, but within 3 years we no longer had to have the police come and monitor. We had a strong corps of volunteers and youth leaders. We looked to the youth leaders to bring this about. INTERVIEWER 2: Can you identify the time of this now? NARRATOR: This would have been between '59 and '62 those were the years when we had youth dances. INTERVIEWER 1: And where did you hold these dances? NARRATOR: We held them at the [00:13:00] schools. We had some at McKinley School. We had some at Carver Center. We had some at Wakefield High School. INTERVIEWER 2: Now, Connie, at that time there were comparatively few Negroes in the so called all white schools or previously all white schools. The full integration did not really come until much later, and, of course, the Negro population in Arlington is comparatively small. But there was integration in the dances as far as blacks and whites attending? NARRATOR: Yes, there was, and I would say in the same basic relationship as to the population. At that time was maybe only 6 or 7% population, and I would say we had that kind of representation. I must say, though, that even today in locations like Carver the Carver Center [00:14:00] and the Langston Center they still have their programs, and they are predominately black. Those neighborhoods that have remained predominately black still have dances where they are predominately black although I would say that that's changing now because you have more Hispanics and you have more Asians, and I see evidence of that kind of integration within the black community occurring now. But I did think that the working relationships between the organizations in the community helps and is making our recent concerns about bringing new populations in much easier because of that experience. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Integrated Dances Clip - Oral History with Constance McAdam, April 20, 1992 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Constance McAdam on April 20, 1992, regarding her reflections of coordinating integrated dances in through the Parks and Recreation Department. Interviewers are Edmund Campbell and Cas Cocklin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance McAdam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20-Apr-92 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Cas Cocklin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mcadamc19920420_Integrated Dances Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 167kbps Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:12:05 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Constance McAdam Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edmund Campbell, Cas Cocklin Location The location of the interview Arlington County, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Cas Cocklin Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1950s-1980s Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance McAdam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20-Apr-92 Description An account of the resource Constance McAdam was an important figure in Arlington County’s Department of Parks and Recreation. She came to Arlington in 1958 and by the time of her interview had become the Assistant Director of the Department of Parks, Recreation, and Community Resources. Ms. McAdam’s career involved creating programs for a variety of groups of people in Arlington, especially expanding services for senior citizens. One of the first projects Ms. McAdam worked on was integration within the parks department, including sponsoring integrated dances for teens. Her full oral history is available here as an audio file and as a typed transcript. You can also listen to and read the transcripts of excerpts from her interview regarding her involvement with integrated dances. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context mcadamc19920420 Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County Department of Parks and Recreation Integrated Dances Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Constance McAdam, April 20, 1992 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://projectdaps.org/files/original/23b0a78133704a889f576b3bbe70024e.mp3 bdc9fd1c8760acf72b6403f7b6687d19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Michael Jones, Audio Recording Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his life and his experience as one of the first students to integrate Arlington County Schools. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617.mp3 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1960s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ce5f7367af44b53175266110ebf29da7.pdf a82fdec81ffd409966055eb39011f316 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Michael Jones INTERVIEWER: Judith Knudsen DATE: June 17, 2016 INTERVIEWER: [00:00:02] Okay. Today is Friday, June 17, and we’re here in the central library to interview Michael Jones, one of the first students to desegregate Arlington Public Schools. The interviewer is Judy Knudsen. So, Michael, would you start maybe giving a little background. Are you from Arlington? Were you born here, et cetera, et cetera? NARRATOR: I was born in Washington, D.C., at Freedman’s Hospital because at the time, black women could not do childcare in Arlington County. So, my mother had to go to D.C. to have me at that time, in 1947. But we lived in Arlington County. Actually, I was raised in the house that my mother still lives in. I’ve been here since that time. Well, I was raised and I grew up here and went to high school here, and then later moved to Sterling. But that’s it as far as my birth situation is concerned. INTERVIEWER: [00:01:00] Okay. So, were you living in Hall’s Hill/High View Park? Is that—? NARRATOR: Yeah. My grandmother on my mother’s side—well, both my grandmothers live in Hall’s Hill. One grandmother—my father’s mother lived on Edison Street, and my mother’s living on what is now Emerson Street. So, I had both my grandmothers—both my grandfathers had already passed on when I was born, but my grandmothers are still living here. INTERVIEWER: And where did you go to school then in your early years? NARRATOR: I went to—when I was actually about four years old, there was a kindergarten school—so, on Cameron Street—Mother Goose Kindergarten—so, I went there when I was four years old. Five years old, I went to John M. Langston. That's where, from the first grade to the sixth grade—that’s—we started at Stratford, I think, after that. So, I went to John M. Langston for the first grade to the sixth grade. INTERVIEWER: Okay. What do you remember in those early years of living in Hall’s Hill? NARRATOR: [00:02:00] Basically, I remember back when I was staying at my grandmother’s house, my mother’s mother’s house. They lived what is now—almost at the—on Emerson Street almost right next to Lee Highway. They had a house there. It’s since been torn down, and they have other people living there, and they own the lot. But I lived there, and when I used to stay there—my mother and father worked. There was a family that lived—an older couple that lived back where now, I think, the Capital One Bank is on the corner of Lee Highway and George Mason Drive. I used to go over there, and that’s where, I guess, I learned to read, because I remember spreading out the posts—I guess it was the Washington Post or Times Herald back at the time—on the floor and just going through and reading [00:03:00] the comics when I was about four years old. Then, after that, I went to the kindergarten, as I said, and so I was kind of ahead of the time, I guess, as far as the reading is. I learned—they helped me to learn to read when I was about four years old at that time. INTERVIEWER: You learned to read early. NARRATOR: Yeah. And so, it was, of course, a segregated community at the time, but it was a more—it was a more close-knit community, because everybody knew everybody and all, basically. I mean, it was the same streets around there from George Mason Drive or from 19th Street, 20th Street, 21st and into 22nd Street. Then it was the other streets going down. Cameron, Culpepper, Dinwiddie, over to Emerson—over that section. And that’s where I met people who I still know now, and we still go to church together and meet each other. The two major churches at the time were Mount Salvation Baptist Church and it was Calloway United Methodist. [00:04:00] At the time when we were growing up, we went to church with my mother. My mother’s a Baptist, so I grew up in the Baptist church. So, I went there from Sunday school age until I went off to college and moved away. And after I came back, the church, as churches do—the minister passed on, so my mother moved to another church. So, I ended up going to Calloway, the Methodist church. That was my father’s church, so I ended up—that’s where I am now. So, it kind of transitioned there. Hall’s Hill was like the saying it takes a village to raise a child, and I guess I was raised and I spent more of my time—there’s a playground there now, but that’s where all my summers were spent—at that playground down there—where everybody got together from the morning till night, if they didn’t go to school—played basketball, baseball. And there, I met the other members of the—through recreation—members of the other parts of the community, because we went down to South Arlington. There was a big field where we played baseball in the summertime, so that’s when all the other black communities got together for that. [00:05:01] And so, it was a segregated, but it was a good time. I mean I met a lot of people I still know now, and segregation there was—that was, I guess, one of the good parts about it because of the restrictions put on us, you had to become a close community to get by. At the time, we spent a lot of time going to D.C. because there were no movies. We couldn’t go to the movie theaters there, so we had to catch the bus to go to D.C. to watch movies. That was also something we had to do. It was just life as it was at the time. INTERVIEWER: It was sort of self-contained. NARRATOR: Yeah, a self-contained community, because they had the wall back there so you couldn’t go out. I mean, if you went—once you got into the inner streets, I think Edison Street was straight through, but all the other streets—Cameron, Dinwiddie—all those. You couldn’t go through the other communities. Between Edison Street and Glebe Road—other than that, once you got in the community, you had to go out by— [00:06:00] through Lee Highway. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh (affirmative). Talk a little bit about the wall. That's always something that comes up. I mean, as a child, it was—did it mean anything to you? It just meant you couldn’t get through? NARRATOR: Right, right. It just meant that you couldn’t—there were no connecting sites to the other communities of white families around there. There was only—like I said, the only streets were just Glebe Road and then Edison Street, which led to by the hospital. You could go through there that way. But other than that, once you get into the black community there, you had to come out by the way you came in. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: So, that was kind of confusing, I guess, for white people that came in for some reason said, “How do I get out of here?” You know. Because you can’t get out that way. INTERVIEWER: What were things that—well, as a kid, you said you played sports and you got together. What about celebrations, things like Halloween and Christmas? What were those like? NARRATOR: Halloween was great when I was growing up, because Halloween, because of the masks and the outfits, [00:07:00] you couldn’t—you didn’t have to just trick-or-treat in your own neighborhood. Of course, you did—if you put on a good outfit, you could go outside to the white neighborhood and go trick-or-treating, because they wouldn’t know who you were if you had your mask on. So, you could go instead of—if you didn’t get enough candy in the black neighborhood, you go outside to the white neighborhood and get it. And the one thing—you get those big shopping bags—you know—those bags like you get at Whole Foods—stuff like that—and full of candy. After a while, you grew up, you learned you couldn’t eat all your candy in one night or you’d get sick. You had to put it aside, so it was bountiful once—you know. I guess I learned once I—I guess once I get into Stratford or something—elementary—a little above elementary-school age—where to go for Halloween and things like that. But otherwise, it was—Halloween was great. Christmas—my family did Christmas like—my father was such as—we didn’t—we always got a live tree. Of course, I don’t think they had many-you didn’t have many—you couldn’t get artificial trees at the time. So, we always waited to the last minute to go Christmas shopping, maybe because of the money. [00:08:00] But we went out like Christmas Eve about eight o’clock at night looking for a tree. Well, we always got a tree, and we spent the time putting it up late at night and all of that. And when I was younger, I mean, I couldn’t wait to get up and get my—sometimes, once we got the tree up, go right to bed. And I end up sleeping for two hours and end up under the tree about twelve o’clock. They didn’t even put the presents out yet. They said, “Get back to bed! It isn’t Christmas yet!” So, I did that a few times. Then I learned to sleep all the way through after a while. But it was great. Then for Christmas, always we—my godmother lived around there, so she’d give me a present—stuff like that. But it was great. I mean, even though we weren’t rich, we always got presents on Christmas, stuff like that. So, it was great. Everybody, basically—like I said, it was a community thing. We had—most of the stuff I know is based upon the churches. The churches had always stuff going on. And then at the communities—the playground always stuff—so there’s always stuff happening throughout the year. [00:09:00] You know. It seems like it used to snow harder then than it does now. We have snow—every few years, we have a lot of snow. But that was another time we used to get together. When it snowed hard, we would go to the biggest hills around to sleigh ride, and schools are closed the next day. And I remember going over to what we called the white section, and they’d have a big fifty-five-gallon drum and put oil in it and burn fire and stuff like that. And we’d sleigh ride the other kids around there hours at a time. We had no problems like that, so it was great. INTERVIEWER: Did you have brothers and sisters? NARRATOR: Yeah, I have a big family. I have an older brother. There’s seven of us. I’m the second of seven, so I’m the—I have five younger brothers and sisters. INTERVIEWER: Right. Okay. Interesting. Were your parents particularly active in the community pre-desegregation? Were they active? How did that come about that you ended up being one of those children? NARRATOR: [00:10:00] You know, I asked them about that. Well, what happened—one thing was Mrs. Hamm and her family lived right in back of us, and she went to our church—my mother’s church. And so, at the time, they were—I would say they were good friends. I wouldn’t say real—the closest friends, but they were good friends. And they got together for church stuff, so they knew each other. At the time, the parents of Calloway and Mount Salvation got together when this was going on, and interested parents just put their kids’ names forward—who they thought could do well. You know. So, my mom and dad put my name forward. INTERVIEWER: Was there a particular reason why you—? NARRATOR: I don’t know. I guess because I was wondering. They—I guess— INTERVIEWER: You don’t know. NARRATOR: Not really. INTERVIEWER: You’re a kid. You don’t know why. NARRATOR: No. I was doing well in school, so I guess they just— [00:11:00] because I was doing well in school, I guess. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And how did you feel at the time? You’re young. You’re really not aware of what’s— NARRATOR: Didn’t really care. INTERVIEWER: You didn’t care. NARRATOR: Nope. I mean, I had no—they said, “Here’s what you’re going to do,” and I just did it. You know. Here’s what you—and I was with—I wasn’t with—I was with everybody I knew so it wasn’t like it was something strange, stuff like that. Everybody else was doing it, so I just went along with the other people doing it. I knew Ronnie, Lance, Gloria, and all the other people doing it. We were some of the youngest ones that got in. We were some of the youngest in, but they said here’s what we do so that’s what we did. INTERVIEWER: Right. And I understand there was a lot of preparation. Can you tell about that? NARRATOR: Well, they had training sessions before and after. Here’s what you do when—if you get admitted and—at the churches mostly—at either the Baptist church or Methodist church—on training sessions on here’s what you do should this—when this happens. I don’t know. There were so many. I just went to them and just followed suit, you know. INTERVIEWER: Right, right. So, what do you remember about the day [00:12:00] when you—when it happened? What was—? NARRATOR: You know, the further we get away the furthest—the more I forget. The only thing I remember is getting up early that morning and crossed my mind—they dressed me and made my hair and all that—made sure my hair—everything was looking good—nice long coat and everything. We were to meet at Ronnie’s house, and then—our house is right where I stayed—my mother lives now. So, Ronnie’s house is in apartments. Well, I’m two minutes away—just cross the street—and you go down to his apartment there. So, we went to his apartment, and someone drove us around—drove us to the school. Now, my recollection—and I talked to Ronnie and Lance, and they think it’s different. I always thought—and it’s too bad it’s not to the day where I could—where it would be on YouTube. I could just look it up. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. NARRATOR: Yeah. But I always thought we went into our—Vacation Lane—went in that way, straight down that little street there and went up the steps. But they said we went in the other way. But I don’t know. I guess somebody go to—but anyway, went in there and we met with Mr. Claude Richmond [00:13:00] for a while. INTERVIEWER: He was the principal. NARRATOR: He was the principal at the time. He met with us maybe—I guess less than a half an hour before we went in to class, and Ronnie and Lance were together, and me and Gloria were together. I think now that’s because Ronnie and Lance went to the Methodist church at the time. Gloria and I went to the Baptist church. So, I think that’s why they put us together in classes. And we went to the first class and— INTERVIEWER: What was that like? NARRATOR: I don’t know. You know what? I cannot—I don’t remember anything that stood out negative. So, for me, it was just a normal class. We went in there, and I guess I didn’t know anybody, which was difficult when you go—most classes— INTERVIEWER: Of course. New class. NARRATOR: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn’t know anybody, so when we went into class, I guess we were sitting pretty close to each other, and that was it. Came out. I guess we had a ride home that first week or so—something like that. Or maybe first—maybe—I don’t know. Came home and it was—it was up. Fairly uneventful year. The only thing that I can think about that first year is some guys used to [00:14:00] call us names in the hall, and that’s it. But nothing even bad as you see today—getting beat up or anything—and I guess because the focus—everybody knew the focus was on us at the time. If anything happened, it would be negative on not only them but the school, the state, and everybody else. So, nothing happened uneventful except for those. INTERVIEWER: And did—my understanding was that you stayed in the same class for all the classes. I mean, you changed classes, but you had the same group, so it was the same group all the way through the day. NARRATOR: Yeah. Correct. Right. I don’t remember me being in the class by myself that first year. I think Gloria was in all my classes I had. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I have not talked to her, and she was the only girl. I wondered what her experience was. NARRATOR: Hers would probably be a lot different than mine. I don’t know. Like I said, if it wasn’t something that particularly was probably negative, I probably wouldn’t remember it anyway. [00:15:00] And I don’t remember anything really negative other than what I said. INTERVIEWER: Nothing significant as far as that. NARRATOR: Right. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever make any friends that were white friends through that time? NARRATOR: I don’t remember doing that that first year. I made, of course—some of the kids—some of the students or whatever at Stratford, later on at W&L, then I have—you know. We—like I said, at W&L, we graduated sixty-four. We had a reunion in ’14 for that fiftieth year. I know a lot of people from that, but I don’t remember any of those guys I met at Stratford. I don’t remember too many people making really friends—good friends at Stratford. INTERVIEWER: Right. Okay. What about within your own community? Did anybody there have any reaction to you all going? Was there any friction because you were going—? NARRATOR: No. INTERVIEWER: Nothing. NARRATOR: No. We just—I mean, nothing was said to me negative about it. They just treated just as a normal [00:16:00] school—normal student going to school. If they had anything, they said it to someone else but not to me. That's what made it good for me about going there, because it was, to me, going to Stratford, even though it was like going to a job—you know. You may not like your job, but then you come home. The best things are after school, so after school, I would come home to my community and was just like—just like I—no matter where I went, I had good times on. In fact, I probably spent too much time in those first years not doing enough studying afterward, not doing enough studying after I got out of school. Because I could have done—looking back on it now, I could have done a lot better at Stratford and even at W&L after that. But I did well, but I could have done a lot better. Let me put it that way—if I had studied harder. You know. Things like that. But I left school and threw my books down, didn’t pick them up till the next day. [00:17:00] I learned, but I learned enough in class so I could pass the classes. But I didn’t do anything extra because I went back to—hey, school is out. Let’s go back to the playground, playing basketball, baseball with friends and stuff like that. So, if I made it easy to go to school because after school it was like, wow, I got to go through this seven—eight to two-thirty and then—but, you know. INTERVIEWER: Then you’d go home and play. NARRATOR: Yep. Yeah, right. And that’s what I did when I was in Stratford and probably some at W&L. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you were at W&L, were there other black students there? NARRATOR: Oh, plenty then. It wasn’t-it was—by that time, which was four years, ’59, ’60—two or three years later, yeah. Because they had started bringing more black students in every year after that, so it was—most of the people I know from the neighborhood was in the school—in W&L at the time. And other schools that were around, like Wakefield had been integrated at the time also and other schools around there all like to been integrated. Then kids started going to Kenmore and Swanson. [00:18:01] I mean, Swanson and other black junior highs after that. So, it was gradually moving towards desegregation at the time. INTERVIEWER: Right. Do you remember? Teachers, both from your early years—one of the things that people always say was how—what good teachers you had in that community already to teach you all. NARRATOR: Yeah, we had excellent teachers. You mean at Langston? INTERVIEWER: Yes. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah, yeah. If the teachers had not done as well as they did, I’m sure we wouldn’t have been admitted academically. But we did. I guess—you know—all the tests they gave us we passed, and we were academically ready for that, because the teachers that—the knowledge they passed on to us and the teaching they did. We were well—we didn’t have to go through any remedial classes—anything like that. And we weren’t behind. We were just on the level with all the other students there. So, our teachers were great. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Now, were there any particular teachers during that first year that you remember specifically for any reason? [00:19:00] Or was anybody helpful or not helpful? NARRATOR: I don’t remember anybody not being helpful. Miss Miller is still alive. She’s 101, so she was one of my geometry teachers, I think, at the time. And through those first years, yeah, I mean, I guess I remember more from W&L than I do here—do Stratford. But there were no negative teachers I can think of. If they did something negative, I don’t realize it. But they were all helpful. There were none that—I don’t remember asking anybody a question where they didn’t give me the answer that I needed. So, they did their jobs as far as I’m concerned. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right. When you look back on it now, are you glad? How do you feel about it now? I mean, this was pivotal. Those kids—I mean, you all—that was history in the making. Now, you don’t know that when you’re a child. NARRATOR: No, no, no. Like I said, as a child, like I said, I just [00:20:00] followed what my parents said. My parents said do this and I did this. Like I said, the good thing for me was that I was with people that I knew and people I grew up with, so that made it a lot easier. And like I said, I had a community. The whole community was great to me, so that made it a lot easier for me. And all I had to do was just not mess up, so to speak. Not mess up. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: And that’s what I tried to do. INTERVIEWER: And does your mother—how does she feel about it now? She’s still around. Is she—it’s just the past? It’s what happened? NARRATOR: Yeah. I mean, she was glad that it went through and it worked out great for us. No incidents like down in Arkansas in Little Rock or Alabama. And I think that was a good, big part of it because Arlington County—the advantage of it—it’s so close to D.C., and that meant that a lot of federal government employees lived around this area, people who don’t come—you know. [00:21:01] This was not one of those little southern towns where people been here all their—I mean, there was some people been here all their life, but people move in and out of this area a lot, and people come from all over the United States here. And so, this is an area that is kind of pivotal, not only to Virginia but to the nation. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: So, and people in Arlington County, more than anything else, I guess—the people that came in—they didn’t want their kids impacted by bad schools, and so they were kind of looking out for themselves as they looked out for us. And it turned out great for Virginia because schools didn’t close. If you imagine what happened if schools are closed around here, it would have had a long-lasting impact we’d still be feeling now, economically and every way. Now, because schools were integrated and things are going good, northern Virginia is one of the leading areas in the nation right now, economically and [00:22:01] our people—I mean, we have schools around here—Thomas Jefferson, like that—and great schools all around here. People come to this area, they look for good areas to live, and Arlington County is one of those areas they look to live in. But it made the whole area better academically and economically, and it put Arlington County on the map. Before then, who knew about Arlington County? You know. I mean, basically. You knew it was here, but it was not—didn’t stand out for any particular reason. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: But that’s one of the reasons it does stand out now nationally, like a—in one of those, I think, DVDs about it, it showed that when this happened, it was shown not just here. It was shown all over the world that this happened, and it was good, I guess, politically also for the nation—show that people can get along regardless of their differences. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: So, it was a long impact, but I didn’t think of any of that then. I just— INTERVIEWER: Of course not. NARRATOR: I just went to school [00:23:01] and was glad, blessed to be a part of it. INTERVIEWER: Right. Do you have children? NARRATOR: Two girls. I have a daughter that’s married and a daughter that still lives with—both of them were fortunate enough to finish college and are on their own, basically. INTERVIEWER: That's a good thing. Now, do they understand the role you played? I mean, do they really know what you did? NARRATOR: Well, they had been to me to the different—some of them been to the different events, so they know a little of the background and I’ve been fortunate enough—we live in Loudoun County now, and sometimes they ask me to speak at the schools at events, so I do that. And I volunteer at one of the elementary schools, Sugarland Elementary. So, every so often, they ask me to speak to like the fourth- or fifth-grade students about what happened during February during Black History Month about what happened then. So, I do that periodically. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s nice to do that. Yeah. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER: What do you tell them at that age? You have to tell it pretty—at their level. NARRATOR: Well, the teacher spends a little bit about it [00:24:00] I just tell them the difference between going to school now and going to school back then—segregation, desegregation, things like that—as far as their being a difference and how it’s much different than it was back in 1959 to ’60 than it is right now INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh (affirmative). Right. All right. Let’s go back a little bit to Hall’s Hill. You said you had to go into D.C. to go to movies and things like that. NARRATOR: Right. Restaurants and all of that. INTERVIEWER: So, did you do—did you do that often or some or—? NARRATOR: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, we frequently caught the bus on Lee Highway, and it took us right down to D.C.—11th and E. or the stops where the movie theaters were—so we spent a lot of time going back and forth. No subway then, so we—it was just the un-air-conditioned bus down there with the fans and everything like that. But the bus was cheap. You know. So, it was—that’s how it is. You get used to it. Just like now. People have to get used to the subway in some places. You have to get used to it. That's how it is. [00:25:00] INTERVIEWER: And you—also to restaurants because there were—that also was an— NARRATOR: Right. If they’re only—I guess there were—I can’t remember too many black restaurants around here now. We had black stores where you could go in and buy stuff like—on Lee Highway, there was a black-owned grocery store. There were a few black-owned grocery stores; but otherwise, there were no really black restaurants around that you could eat like there are now where you could go to eat. INTERVIEWER: What about shopping for clothes or things like that? Did you go into D.C. for that? Or were there stores you could go to in the area? NARRATOR: Well, you remember back then there were no malls or anything like that. INTERVIEWER: That's true. NARRATOR: Right. So basically, we did—you did have to go in and either catch the bus or drive into D.C. Of course, there wasn’t much to park in D.C. at the time, so you could drive down there and go to—it was—and in fact, a lot of stores that people went in to go shop—you did go shopping as far as [00:26:00] I know at that time into D.C. and things like that. INTERVIEWER: But your groceries you could get right— NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. You could get groceries here. INTERVIEWER: Did people have gardens? NARRATOR: A lot of gardens around. Yeah, a lot of those big gardens, and my uncle had a garden on the site where he built a house when I was growing up. He had a lot of gardens, and it was funny. I was telling my daughters right now. I remember growing up, there were plenty of apple trees, grape trees, all kind of trees around the community. You could go to get fresh fruits and stuff like that. Not like it is now. I mean, it was—you could go to pick apples anywhere around. INTERVIEWER: Really? NARRATOR: Yeah, yeah. And people had grape vines—go pick grapes off the vine. Pear trees—all kind of trees all around. I remember in my grandmother’s yard, there was a pear tree. INTERVIEWER: Really? NARRATOR: Right. A lot of fruit trees growing around then. People had gardens—all kinds of gardens around. Lettuce and all that—tomatoes and stuff like that. You know—that they grew. My other grandmother used to do preserves and put them in stuff to preserve up for the winter, [00:27:00] so it was a lot of stuff, a lot of that going around. INTERVIEWER: Did people have chickens or anything like that? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. The family living back of us had chickens and a lot of chickens running around in there—the chicken coop. You could see the chickens running around, and I’m sure other people had chickens, too. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Oh, sure. NARRATOR: In fact, they had a horse. They had a horse. They used to—I think he used to pick up trash. So, he had a horse he used to use for stuff like that, and we had—and when I was really young, there were—some of the people didn’t have sewage systems, so they had outhouses around. INTERVIEWER: Oh, really? NARRATOR: And then, you had the—so you had once or twice a week, you had the guy who would come clean out the outhouses. He’s going around in a truck [laughs] cleaning out the outhouses of all the people that didn’t have bathrooms in their houses. INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. NARRATOR: [laughs] INTERVIEWER: Wow, that was a great job. NARRATOR: Yeah, you’re right. They used to have a name for them. It was some kind of wagon. It wasn’t foul. I mean it wasn’t a—but some kind—I forgot what kind of wagon they used to call it. INTERVIEWER: [00:28:00] I’m sure there was a name for it. NARRATOR: You could smell him before you could see him though. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s funny. Was there an iceman? Was it back when—? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah, yeah. Iceman, milkman—you know. In fact, at the time, the milkman came, and the guy came and put ice in the refrigerator. And the insurance man—the guys that used to come around in the day selling insurance—they used to come by every week. They would pick up your premium. So, we had a guy for insurance that used to come around for your life insurance—used to come around and check off the— INTERVIEWER: Door-to-door. NARRATOR: Door-to-door life insurance. Right, right. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s funny. Now, a lot of people built their own houses in Hall’s Hill, I understand. NARRATOR: It was the Carpenter family. Mr. John Carpenter used to build a lot of houses around, so quite a few houses he built before—and he used to live up near where my grandmother—up on 22nd Street near George Mason. The Carpenter family. Yeah, he did a lot of building around there. INTERVIEWER: Okay. But your family didn’t build their own houses. NARRATOR: It was built when I was— [00:29:00] after I was—my father went to the service. He was in the Army till about 1940—’41 to forty—no. About ’42 to—my brother was born in ’42, so he left right after my brother was born, and he came back in ’46. And then I was born the year later. So, when he—my house—the house my mother lives in now was built sometime in ’47, just after I was born, and we moved in there. Yeah. Otherwise, we’d stay at my—my mother stayed at my grandmother’s house while my father was away. INTERVIEWER: Okay. NARRATOR: So that was—I don’t know who built it. I don’t think Mr. Carpenter built it, but it was built in ’47. INTERVIEWER: Sure. Right. Now, I know that you indicated that women—if they had children, they had to go into D.C. to get— NARRATOR: Yeah, yeah, because you couldn’t in Arlington County. The only kind of health things were there for emergencies—life-or-death situations. INTERVIEWER: Right. But were there doctors in the community where you’d go for like—? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Who was the doctor? NARRATOR: It was Dr. Morton. [00:30:00] In fact, he was the mother—Dr. Morton was the mother of Ms. Merle Williams, who—and she—Merle Williams was the husband. She married Mr. Merton Williams. Mr. Merton recently passed about a year ago, and he worked in the cafeteria at Langston with my mother. So, that’s—and he has two sons, Sydney and his younger brother. So, he has two sons. They’re still around now, Sydney and Steve. So they’re still around now, and they had a house up on Dinwiddie Street, but he had a house. He lived right on—almost where McDonald’s is now on Lee Highway. They lived right next to where McDonald’s is before McDonald’s was built—right there. And he was a doctor, Dr. Morton. There was another doctor we went to later on up in Falls Church, but that was after I grew up. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. But this one was—Dr. Morton served the whole community— NARRATOR: Right. Correct. INTERVIEWER: —where people went to him. [00:31:01] Okay. All right. So, you didn’t have fast food then. No fast food. NARRATOR: No, no, no. At the time, you know what. There were—by Miss Allen—the little store in the community on Columbus Street—she had a little store, and she sold pig’s feet, bread, milk, and all that kind of stuff. And one thing when I was growing up, I didn’t have a job till I had a job when I was sixteen. But at the time, the store was paid if you would bring recycled bottles back. So, if you had the smaller bottles were two cent. The bigger bottles were a nickel, so you would never find a broken bottle around there because everybody cashed your—took a bottle back to the store to get either two cent or a nickel. And that’s how I bought a lot of cookies because they had two-for-a-penny cookies. I ended up buying all the two-for-a-penny cookies I could eat. But you could hardly find any bottles smashed because they were worth money, so everyone took care of the bottles they had. So, if you found a bottle, [00:32:00] you would hustle it up, take it to the store, and get two cent or five cent for it. INTERVIEWER: Wow. Good for the environment. NARRATOR: Right. Exactly. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s funny. So, is there anything else special you remember about living there that made it special, other than it was just such a good community that looked after each other, I would guess? NARRATOR: Yeah. Like I said, even when it was snowing, I went sleigh riding and guys would just sleigh ride down the hills. Summertime, we spent all the summers playing basketball, baseball, traveling around and they had the—they had the boys’ baseball team. They had an adult baseball team that would also travel. You could get a ride, and they played other black teams around the area. You could—and they played teams on the south and all the areas, so you could—if you caught a ride, you could go see them play down in Loudoun County or other counties around the area where black teams played. And in fact, there’s not very much of that now. Back then, it was a whole lot of teams—recreational baseball for adults like it is—there’s not many now. [00:33:00] That's kind of faded away also. INTERVIEWER: Right. Do you remember the name of that team? NARRATOR: The Virginia White Sox. INTERVIEWER: The Virginia White Sox. I think we have a picture—a photo of them. NARRATOR: Right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. What about birthdays, things like that? Was that a big thing with the family or not? NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. We always celebrated birthdays for everybody. I mean, it wasn’t big because we didn’t have a lot of money. But we usually had a cake and sing the usual birthday songs—stuff like that—for everybody. INTERVIEWER: Were there fireworks on the Fourth of July? NARRATOR: I’m sure we did something on the playground. I can’t remember anything really significant, but I’m sure there was something we celebrated. And usually, like I said, all that stuff was done on the playground down there, but Fourth of July I remember just being a holiday. People usually—people really—one thing I remember about that time also is the churches—they had beach trips. Since we couldn’t get to the beach around here, we’d have beach—the church would have—you could buy a ticket and we’d go to the black beaches around. [00:34:00] There was a beach called Carl’s Beach, Sparrow’s Beach in Maryland. And they would take a busload of people and go to the beach every summer and one or two times a summer. So, that was—and that was a significant part of the summer. You would go to the beach and spend all day at the beach running around playing in the water and things like that. INTERVIEWER: Right. Were they on the bay or on the ocean? Do you remember? NARRATOR: I think mostly, as far as I know, the ocean. It was a nice jump in—like I said, everybody got together in one or two busses—they just hauled in and spent a day at the beach. And my father used to—I remember once we used to—my father always owned a station wagon. We had a lot of kids. We’d take the station wagon and go to the beach, too. So, that was the summertime. INTERVIEWER: Sounds interesting. I would say—is there anything about all that—the experience of the desegregation and everything—that surprised you particularly? Or was it just—? You said you just sort of took it. It was what you went to school, but is there anything, looking back on it, that [00:35:00] you see as a surprise? NARRATOR: Not really. I remember going to—when I went to Stratford, they—you would think from the teaching that we were going to a private prep school where everybody was—where everyone had more than we did and everyone was upper class. But in just going there, I remember that maybe the first year was—I said, “Gosh, some people are worse off than we were.” You know? I mean, some kids—some kids weren’t as smart as we were. I said—we were told this and some kids, unfortunately—they felt, well, they didn’t—wanted to show us how to eat around other kids, and some—their manners weren’t as good as our manners were. So, I said—and I guess it was good later on. I mean, this shows you people are people, basically. And some are better, some are worse off. Some kids didn’t have as much as we did. Some had more. But [00:36:01] some weren’t as smart as we were. Some were smarter. Some weren’t. So, we were just people living along, trying to get along, and trying to make it through life. You know? INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: And that’s what I learned basically. It’s—we may be treated differently, basically, because of the color of our skin and our race, but given the opportunity, we can do just as well as anybody else, given the same advantages as everybody else has. Just like anybody else, some of us will pass, some of us will fail—you know—baseball and in marriage. So, that’s all we want is the same opportunity. And looking back now, it seems to have worked out well. INTERVIEWER: Well, it was a strong community that you came from, and that’s really important, I think. NARRATOR: Yep, it did. Yeah, you’re right. INTERVIEWER: Thank you for doing this. Is there anything else you’d like to add that you can think of? NARRATOR: No. Like I said, I was blessed to be in that situation, blessed that it turned out so well for us, and I’m thankful, looking back on it, it helped me in a lot of instances. [00:37:00] Like I said, looking back now, I just—I know I should have done—spent more time studying instead of—you know. But I guess— INTERVIEWER: A lot of people could say that. [laughter] NARRATOR: But so far, it’s turned out great for me, thank God. INTERVIEWER: Did your brothers and sisters have any particular feeling about you going there? NARRATOR: No, because they were younger, so they eventually ended up going to those same schools. My older brother—he didn’t say anything. I guess he was fine with it because it’s part of the community, and someone had to do it. Good for the community that we did it, for the most part. The only thing about—you know. As time goes on, things change and fifty years now—of course, things changed so much. It wouldn’t have been the same community anyway, because people are—people who made up the community then are passed on, and [00:38:01] things have changed a lot in the community. But for what it was now—for that period of time, it was a great community and it led to better things for us and for the state and for the nation. INTERVIEWER: They did indeed. Well, thank you, Michael. NARRATOR: Thank you very much. INTERVIEWER: I appreciate it. NARRATOR: That was great. [00:38:18] [end of audio]   1 19th Street 4 2 20th Street 4 22nd Street 4, 29 A adult baseball team 33 Arlington County 1, 20, 30 Arlington Public School 1 B background 1, 23 baseball 4, 16, 33, 37 basketball 4, 16, 33 bathrooms 28 beach trips 34 birthdays 34 black beaches 35 black communities 5 black community 6 Black History Month 23 black students 17 black teams 33 black women 1 black-owned grocery store 25 bottles 32 brother 9, 30, 31, 38 brothers 9, 38 bus 5, 24, 25 busses 35 C Calloway 4, 9 Calloway United Methodist 4 Cameron 2, 4, 5 Cameron Street 2 Carl’s Beach 35 Carpenter, Mr. John 29 celebrations 6 chickens 27 children 9, 22, 30 Christmas 6, 7, 8 Christmas shopping 7 church 4, 9, 11, 13, 34 churches 4, 8, 11, 34 classes 13, 14, 16, 18 college 4, 22 Columbus Street 32 community 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 15, 16, 18, 19, 26, 30, 31, 32, 33, 37, 38 cookies 32 Culpepper 4 D D.C. 1, 5, 20, 24, 25, 30 daughter 22 desegregation 9, 17, 23, 35 Dinwiddie 4, 5, 31 doctors 30 E Edison Street 2, 5, 6 Emerson 2, 3, 4 Emerson Street 2, 3 F family 3, 7, 9, 27, 29, 34 fast food 32 father 2, 3, 4, 7, 30, 35 focus 14 Fourth of July 34 Freedman’s Hospital 1 friends 9, 15, 16 G gardens 26 George Mason Drive 3, 4 Glebe Road 5, 6 Gloria 11, 13, 14 government employees 20 grandfathers 2 grandmother 2, 3, 26, 27, 29, 30 grandmothers 2 groceries 25, 26 H Hall’s Hill 2, 4, 24, 29 Halloween 6, 7 Hamm, Mrs. 9 high school 1 history 19 horse 27 hospital 6 houses 28, 29 I iceman 28 impact 21, 22 insurance 29 integrated 17, 21 K Kenmore 17 kindergarten 2, 3 kindergarten school 2 L Lance 11, 12, 13 Langston 18, 31 Langston, John M. 2 Lee Highway 3, 5, 24, 25, 31 Loudoun County 23, 33 M manners 36 Maryland 35 milkman 29 Miller, Miss 19 money 7, 32, 34 Morton, Dr. 31 mother 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 12, 20, 30, 31 Mother Goose Kindergarten 2 Mount Salvation 4, 9 Mount Salvation Baptist Church 4 movie theaters 5, 24 movies 5, 24 O ocean 35 opportunity 36 outhouses 27, 28 P parents 9, 19 playground 4, 8, 16, 34 preparation 11 principal 12, 13 R race 36 reaction 15 reading 3 recreation 4 recreational baseball 33 recycled bottles 32 restaurants 24 restrictions 5 Richmond, Mr. Claude 12 Ronnie 11, 12, 13 S schools 8, 17, 21, 23, 38 segregated 3, 5 segregated community 3 segregation 5, 23 shopping 7, 25 sisters 9, 38 sleigh ride 8, 33 snow 8 southern towns 20 Sparrow’s Beach 35 station wagon 35 Sterling 1 stores 25 Stratford 2, 7, 15, 16, 17, 19, 36 studying 16, 37 subway 24 Sugarland Elementary 23 summertime 5, 35 Swanson 17 T teachers 18, 19 Times Herald 3 training sessions 11 trash 27 tree 7, 26 trees 7, 26 two-for-a-penny cookies 32 V Vacation Lane 12 Virginia 20, 21, 33 Virginia White Sox 34 W W&L 15, 16, 17, 19 Wakefield 17 wall 5, 6 Washington Post 3 Washington, D.C. 1 white families 6 white friends 15 white people 6 Williams, Ms. Merle 31 Y YouTube 12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Michael Jones, Transcript Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his life and his experience as one of the first students to integrate Arlington County Schools. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617.pdf Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1960s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/893f68361ed4a60618d79076f625229a.mp3 ba44399b4f517dfd9484c91df1815ff2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Day Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of his first day at Stratford. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_First Day Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ab29e668ceb601ad0da45e963ce516a9.pdf a8eebe15c6952d552e6a662fd21255c5 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Michael Jones INTERVIEWER: Judith Knudsen DATE: June 17, 2016 First Day Clip INTERVIEWER: Right, right. So, what do you remember about the day [00:12:00] when you—when it happened? What was—? NARRATOR: You know, the further we get away the furthest—the more I forget. The only thing I remember is getting up early that morning and crossed my mind—they dressed me and made my hair and all that—made sure my hair—everything was looking good—nice long coat and everything. We were to meet at Ronnie’s house, and then—our house is right where I stayed—my mother lives now. So, Ronnie’s house is in apartments. Well, I’m two minutes away—just cross the street—and you go down to his apartment there. So, we went to his apartment, and someone drove us around—drove us to the school. Now, my recollection—and I talked to Ronnie and Lance, and they think it’s different. I always thought—and it’s too bad it’s not to the day where I could—where it would be on YouTube. I could just look it up. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. NARRATOR: Yeah. But I always thought we went into our—Vacation Lane—went in that way, straight down that little street there and went up the steps. But they said we went in the other way. But I don’t know. I guess somebody go to—but anyway, went in there and we met with Mr. Claude Richmond [00:13:00] for a while. INTERVIEWER: He was the principal. NARRATOR: He was the principal at the time. He met with us maybe—I guess less than a half an hour before we went in to class, and Ronnie and Lance were together, and me and Gloria were together. I think now that’s because Ronnie and Lance went to the Methodist church at the time. Gloria and I went to the Baptist church. So, I think that’s why they put us together in classes. And we went to the first class and— INTERVIEWER: What was that like? NARRATOR: I don’t know. You know what? I cannot—I don’t remember anything that stood out negative. So, for me, it was just a normal class. We went in there, and I guess I didn’t know anybody, which was difficult when you go—most classes— INTERVIEWER: Of course. New class. NARRATOR: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn’t know anybody, so when we went into class, I guess we were sitting pretty close to each other, and that was it. Came out. I guess we had a ride home that first week or so—something like that. Or maybe first—maybe—I don’t know. Came home and it was—it was up. Fairly uneventful year. The only thing that I can think about that first year is some guys used to [00:14:00] call us names in the hall, and that’s it. But nothing even bad as you see today—getting beat up or anything—and I guess because the focus—everybody knew the focus was on us at the time. If anything happened, it would be negative on not only them but the school, the state, and everybody else. So, nothing happened uneventful except for those. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Day Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of his first day at Stratford. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_First Day Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/975c13e29f1a3da5c9503d3e3059313c.mp3 bbcb8ccd090002b826f4365b6bda1214 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hall's Hill and Segregation Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories growing up in the Hall's Hill neighborhood and segregated Arlington. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Hall's Hill and Segregation Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/c1c75f2cb7bfbf0de310d8c054f264c1.pdf d9d455dc36ecb35f4f5e24d684bf2566 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Michael Jones INTERVIEWER: Judith Knudsen DATE: June 17, 2016 Hall’s Hill and Segregation NARRATOR: [00:04:29] Hall’s Hill was like the saying it takes a village to raise a child, and I guess I was raised and I spent more of my time—there’s a playground there now, but that’s where all my summers were spent—at that playground down there—where everybody got together from the morning till night, if they didn’t go to school—played basketball, baseball. And there, I met the other members of the—through recreation—members of the other parts of the community, because we went down to South Arlington. There was a big field where we played baseball in the summertime, so that’s when all the other black communities got together for that. [00:05:01] And so, it was a segregated, but it was a good time. I mean I met a lot of people I still know now, and segregation there was—that was, I guess, one of the good parts about it because of the restrictions put on us, you had to become a close community to get by. At the time, we spent a lot of time going to D.C. because there were no movies. We couldn’t go to the movie theaters there, so we had to catch the bus to go to D.C. to watch movies. That was also something we had to do. It was just life as it was at the time. INTERVIEWER: It was sort of self-contained. NARRATOR: Yeah, a self-contained community, because they had the wall back there so you couldn’t go out. I mean, if you went—once you got into the inner streets, I think Edison Street was straight through, but all the other streets—Cameron, Dinwiddie—all those. You couldn’t go through the other communities. Between Edison Street and Glebe Road—other than that, once you got in the community, you had to go out by— [00:06:00] through Lee Highway. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh (affirmative). Talk a little bit about the wall. That's always something that comes up. I mean, as a child, it was—did it mean anything to you? It just meant you couldn’t get through? NARRATOR: Right, right. It just meant that you couldn’t—there were no connecting sites to the other communities of white families around there. There was only—like I said, the only streets were just Glebe Road and then Edison Street, which led to by the hospital. You could go through there that way. But other than that, once you get into the black community there, you had to come out by the way you came in. INTERVIEWER: Right. NARRATOR: So, that was kind of confusing, I guess, for white people that came in for some reason said, “How do I get out of here?” You know. Because you can’t get out that way. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hall's Hill and Segregation Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories growing up in the Hall's Hill neighborhood and segregated Arlington. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Hall's Hill and Segregation Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/9ddfc0c46afb02b80771978ed5f5693c.mp3 faf6d9d9a5fef3d1df0a26893d1ca6d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preparation Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of the preparation he and other students received prior to desegregating Stratford. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Preparation Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/cfe7ef6658dcd41df82abd9365df2579.pdf e2ad0c087a8ca142a1d8938f870fe61a PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Michael Jones INTERVIEWER: Judith Knudsen DATE: June 17, 2016 Preparation INTERVIEWER: Right. Okay. Interesting. Were your parents particularly active in the community pre-desegregation? Were they active? How did that come about that you ended up being one of those children? NARRATOR: [00:10:00] You know, I asked them about that. Well, what happened—one thing was Mrs. Hamm and her family lived right in back of us, and she went to our church—my mother’s church. And so, at the time, they were—I would say they were good friends. I wouldn’t say real—the closest friends, but they were good friends. And they got together for church stuff, so they knew each other. At the time, the parents of Calloway and Mount Salvation got together when this was going on, and interested parents just put their kids’ names forward—who they thought could do well. You know. So, my mom and dad put my name forward. INTERVIEWER: Was there a particular reason why you—? NARRATOR: I don’t know. I guess because I was wondering. They—I guess— INTERVIEWER: You don’t know. NARRATOR: Not really. INTERVIEWER: You’re a kid. You don’t know why. NARRATOR: No. I was doing well in school, so I guess they just— [00:11:00] because I was doing well in school, I guess. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And how did you feel at the time? You’re young. You’re really not aware of what’s— NARRATOR: Didn’t really care. INTERVIEWER: You didn’t care. NARRATOR: Nope. I mean, I had no—they said, “Here’s what you’re going to do,” and I just did it. You know. Here’s what you—and I was with—I wasn’t with—I was with everybody I knew so it wasn’t like it was something strange, stuff like that. Everybody else was doing it, so I just went along with the other people doing it. I knew Ronnie, Lance, Gloria, and all the other people doing it. We were some of the youngest ones that got in. We were some of the youngest in, but they said here’s what we do so that’s what we did. INTERVIEWER: Right. And I understand there was a lot of preparation. Can you tell about that? NARRATOR: Well, they had training sessions before and after. Here’s what you do when—if you get admitted and—at the churches mostly—at either the Baptist church or Methodist church—on training sessions on here’s what you do should this—when this happens. I don’t know. There were so many. I just went to them and just followed suit, you know. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preparation Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of the preparation he and other students received prior to desegregating Stratford. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Preparation Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ed6f0aedd4d34b12419903093b03bfa2.mp3 5bad18c75f4bff71093351ec135c0ef5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Teachers at Hoffman-Boston and Segregated Schools Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of the quality of education he received at Langston Elementary and Hoffman-Boston Junior-Senior High School, two segregated schools. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Teachers at Hoffman-Boston and Segregated Schools Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/7680b7803d5ee99e07996aafeea80c5b.pdf ea3968e558835413be23199e595452ea PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Michael Jones INTERVIEWER: Judith Knudsen DATE: June 17, 2016 Teachers at Hoffman-Boston and Segregated Schools Clip INTERVIEWER: Right, right. So, what do you remember about the day [00:12:00] when you—when it happened? What was—? NARRATOR: You know, the further we get away the furthest—the more I forget. The only thing I remember is getting up early that morning and crossed my mind—they dressed me and made my hair and all that—made sure my hair—everything was looking good—nice long coat and everything. We were to meet at Ronnie’s house, and then—our house is right where I stayed—my mother lives now. So, Ronnie’s house is in apartments. Well, I’m two minutes away—just cross the street—and you go down to his apartment there. So, we went to his apartment, and someone drove us around—drove us to the school. Now, my recollection—and I talked to Ronnie and Lance, and they think it’s different. I always thought—and it’s too bad it’s not to the day where I could—where it would be on YouTube. I could just look it up. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. NARRATOR: Yeah. But I always thought we went into our—Vacation Lane—went in that way, straight down that little street there and went up the steps. But they said we went in the other way. But I don’t know. I guess somebody go to—but anyway, went in there and we met with Mr. Claude Richmond [00:13:00] for a while. INTERVIEWER: He was the principal. NARRATOR: He was the principal at the time. He met with us maybe—I guess less than a half an hour before we went in to class, and Ronnie and Lance were together, and me and Gloria were together. I think now that’s because Ronnie and Lance went to the Methodist church at the time. Gloria and I went to the Baptist church. So, I think that’s why they put us together in classes. And we went to the first class and— INTERVIEWER: What was that like? NARRATOR: I don’t know. You know what? I cannot—I don’t remember anything that stood out negative. So, for me, it was just a normal class. We went in there, and I guess I didn’t know anybody, which was difficult when you go—most classes— INTERVIEWER: Of course. New class. NARRATOR: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn’t know anybody, so when we went into class, I guess we were sitting pretty close to each other, and that was it. Came out. I guess we had a ride home that first week or so—something like that. Or maybe first—maybe—I don’t know. Came home and it was—it was up. Fairly uneventful year. The only thing that I can think about that first year is some guys used to [00:14:00] call us names in the hall, and that’s it. But nothing even bad as you see today—getting beat up or anything—and I guess because the focus—everybody knew the focus was on us at the time. If anything happened, it would be negative on not only them but the school, the state, and everybody else. So, nothing happened uneventful except for those. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Teachers at Hoffman-Boston and Segregated Schools Clip - Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history with Michael Jones on June 17, 2016, regarding his memories of the quality of education he received at Langston Elementary and Hoffman-Boston Junior-Senior High School, two segregated schools. Interviewer is Judy Knudsen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617_Teachers at Hoffman-Boston and Segregated Schools Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 96kbps Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:18 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Jones Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judy Knudsen Location The location of the interview Arlington County, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1940s-1960 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Jones Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17-Jun-16 Description An account of the resource Michael Jones was one of the first four students to break the segregation barriers in Arlington Public Schools by attending the previously all-white Stratford Junior High School in 1959. Mr. Jones grew up in the Hall’s Hill neighborhood, a historically African-American community in northern Arlington County. He was interviewed for the Arlington Public Library Oral History Program by Judith Knudsen, and his interview is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from his oral history, regarding his memories of growing up in Hall’s Hill and segregated Arlington, the quality of teachers at Langston and Hoffman-Boston, the preparation leading up to desegregation, and his first day at Stratford. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context jonesm20160617 Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Michael Jones, June 17, 2016 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ac1f1a68310e022f9b18f82fec48d704.mp3 d5d9ed9d1ec489d758099d8dce6a6cba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 13, 2016, regarding his life and his experience as one of the first students to desegregate Arlington Public Schools. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Kundsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Edited.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/71e44a62707329a0f5c5f509f3e735d5.pdf 80734123815ee9c279d532cd1322ad96 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 INTERVIEWER 1: [00:00:04] Today is Saturday, February 13, 2016, and we are here in the central library to do an oral history with Lance Newman, who was one of the four students to desegregate Arlington public schools. The interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. So I guess we can start by saying tell us where you grew up here and where you went to school early and what it was like. NARRATOR: Okay. I grew up in the Halls Hill area of Arlington County. Originally, I lived on Lee Highway, and then we moved to—-that was in the ’50s—-in 1951 or so—-and then in ’64, we moved to 22nd Street but the same area. I went to school at Langston Elementary, W&L High School, and then I went to Howard University for my bachelor’s in engineering. Then I moved to the Los Angeles area. INTERVIEWER 1: [00:01:01] What was it like growing up? It was segregated. NARRATOR: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Actually, we can discuss this. Actually, it was pretty good. I mean Halls Hill was a very—actually, it was a great place to grow up. It was a very close community. Everybody knew everybody, and there were families and stuff, and there was really—it wasn’t really the problems that you have today. It was in the ’50s and early ’60s and stuff. You didn’t have the drug problems and all of that. And because it was— (phone rings) INTERVIEWER 1: Okay. So you were saying— NARRATOR: Okay. Yes, it was a very nice place to grow up. There were community leaders, and most people were—as far as the black community were concerned—I guess you would call it lower-middle class tradesmen. [00:02:01] A lot of people worked for the government. But I guess, generally, I just want to tell you that there were no—I mean we—there was no overt racism at the time. There were problems. I can remember early on when I was extremely young going down to the—I think it was Kanns or Hecht Company at the—in the Parkington—whatever you call it—Ballston-Parkington. INTERVIEWER 1: Parkington would have been Hecht’s. Yeah, right. NARRATOR: And the sign just said—in the bathroom, I can vaguely remember it saying ‘colored.’ Okay. But that was one of my first introductions to it, and that’s when I may have been about four or five years old. But other than that, I can say that it was just a nice place to grow up, and I’m thankful for it. [00:03:06] Oh, and like I said, I actually did have a great set of parents. I didn’t please them all the time, (laughs) but who does? I drove them nuts sometimes, but we did. And so, I think that’s pretty much it about my feelings about— INTERVIEWER 1: Right. You had siblings—your children—brothers and sisters you had— NARRATOR: Yeah. I had one brother, one sister. My brother still lives here. He’s retired D.C. police. My sister teaches in South Carolina at a college down there. My parents are deceased. Actually, I do have a lot of cousins that actually live in Arlington. In fact, I’m staying with my cousin right now. She lives in Hall’s Hill, so that’s it. INTERVIEWER 1: Okay. So were your parents active in the desegregation movement? And how did that work out? NARRATOR: [00:04:04] They were a little passive. They weren’t the act—they weren’t as active as Ms. Hamm or Ms. Cosley or Ms. Deskins. They were the three really movers and the most active participants. My parents—my mom and dad were sort of passive. I mean not passive. They were participants, and I remember they gave us a choice. Do we want to be a part of the desegregation suit? When I say ‘they,’ I mean they gave us—I meant my brother and I, because my sister was fairly young at the time. And I said yes, and my brother said no. He wanted to stay at HB. So where some of the other kids’ parents said, “You’re going to do this,” or—you know—whether you like it or not. And I was—so for that, I kind of— [00:05:01] in later years, I kind of appreciated that they did give us the choice and didn’t force it upon us, because some kids—they were forced upon them. I don’t think they had a very fond memory of the whole experience. I wouldn’t say nobody had it. There were really no fond—I mean I can’t say fond memories, but they had a—shall we say a negative experience, a negative memory. INTERVIEWER 1: Do you know why you said yes at the time? Were you just adventurous? NARRATOR: Okay. A couple of things. I was kind of adventurous. I said—you know. It was sort of, hey, this will be cool maybe. And at the time, we were bussed down to HB in south Arlington. That was the school, and I hated getting up in the morning and getting on and riding the bus. I really did for some reason, because I’m lazy. I didn’t like to get up that early, but I just didn’t like it. I said, “Oh, gee. I’ll just walk down to school or something.” Although the walk took just as long as the bus ride, [00:06:00] it turns out, because I had Stratford from Arlington. But at the time—I just remember that, and that was one of the reasons. So it wasn’t—I mean I didn’t have any overreaching goal. I mean at twelve years old, you really don’t understand what the movement’s all about. You don’t know. And so I thought it would be kind of a relief from the drudgery of (laughs) the school bus ride. I mean that’s sort of trivial, but that was one of the reasons. And you know, it was just—I mean they kind of impressed upon us the difficulties we might encounter and everything, but it didn’t daunt me. INTERVIEWER 2: Uh-huh (affirmative). And before then, had your parents talked to you about segregation and race relations in Arlington and things like that? NARRATOR: Not extensively. They kind of mentioned [00:07:00] there were problems and stuff, and we lived in our community. It’s all black. If you weren’t really—I mean we couldn’t—we didn’t venture out that much from the Hill because of that, but they didn’t—I don’t believe that they—they didn’t say that you can’t go to these places, but they said there were certain places—your boundary. You really shouldn’t be going. I remember that they—you know. This is from when they became a—when I got a little older, when you could go out on your own, going to places like Peoples Drug Store and [00:08:00] there’s a restaurant called Tops at the time on George Mason Drive and Lee Highway. And they were saying you couldn’t—you could only go in the back if you wanted something for takeout, and that was our—not introduction, but that was one of our memories of the segregated—the segregation in Arlington. INTERVIEWER 1: Uh-huh (affirmative). But you had a lot of your own businesses and things within the community. NARRATOR: Yeah. There was actually—that was pre-integration. After that, it kind of died. They had the stores like Miss Allen’s stores, Mr. Hicks’ store. I’m trying to remember all this—local grocery stores, mom-and-pop organizations. So we did have those. Like I said, it was a community contained in itself, so that was good, I thought. INTERVIEWER 1: [00:09:00] Now, the churches played a strong role in this. NARRATOR: Yeah. INTERVIEWER 1: And so, there must have been a lot of leadership there that— NARRATOR: Yes, yes. A lot of the church leaders, the ministers, and the deacons in the Baptist church and the lay people in the Methodist church—I went to Calloway, so a lot of those leaders were very active. And during the integration movement, there was not only the church leaders of the black church, but we did have some—a lot—the white churches, especially the Unitarian church on Arlington Boulevard, I think. INTERVIEWER 1: Yes. NARRATOR: And people from—representatives from there—and actually, they started an exchange going to the Unitarian church trying to get acclimated, shall we say, to what’s coming. [00:10:02] And so, I can say, yes, there was a lot of church support, support from the community churches and the church leaders. INTERVIEWER 1: Right, and the NAACP was— NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. They were—especially the lawyers. I can’t remember some of the names—Robinson, Tucker, I don’t even know if they’re still around these days. They were responsible for the lawsuit—conducted the lawsuit that was brought. And as far as the lawsuit was concerned, if I may digress, I remember we went down to the Alexander Courthouse for the hearings, and I guess there were pictures. [00:11:00] I don’t know if you’ve seen the pictures, but there were pictures of the original thirty plaintiffs that—school—the kids on the steps of the courthouse as we were leaving. And I remember that clearly. And I also remember sitting in the courtroom. I guess it was all day one day—and being bored stiff because you’re twelve years old, and you don’t really understand it. These lawyers are talking, and a lot of times, they’re having conferences with the judge, and so they’re whispering, and you’re twiddling your thumbs, and we were kind of told to be—you know, act properly. So you had to sit in your chair and behave, and so that was—it wasn’t very pleasant. INTERVIEWER 1: [00:12:00] Yeah, for a twelve-year-old— NARRATOR: I just remember for a twelve-year-old, it was—I’d rather be out playing basketball. (laughs) I think it was in the summer, too. I’m not sure. Maybe not. But anyway, you wanted—you’d rather be somewhere else. (laughs) INTERVIEWER 1: Of course. So I know that, leading up to this, you got a lot of preparation. Tell us about that. NARRATOR: Yeah. This is sort of a long—not a long story, but anyways, this is—the community leaders—Ms. Hamm, Ms. Cosley, Ms. Deskins and all the others—in conjunction with the NAACP and the whole organization did a lot of preparation on how to act, how to dress, what might happen when you go to school. You know, the abuse you may have to suffer, the name-calling and the stares and all of that. And this is a time of [00:13:00] passive resistance. You’re supposed to ignore it—suck it up and ignore it. But my dad did tell me. He said, “If somebody hits you, you’ve got permission to whale them.” So defend yourself, as it were. And then, there was also—because they thought—the thought at the time was that we weren’t maybe academically up to the level of the white kids that were at Stratford or in the white school system. We had—they had tutoring sessions, and a couple of things I remember. I went up to—this is after we did decide that the four of us were going to go. We went up to—gosh, I can’t remember the name. They were the church—Mrs. Wesson? She lived in Arlington, but I can’t remember [00:14:01] exactly where. Beyond Garden City, over in that area. Anyway, they were going to tutor us. So the first day we got there, it was in a room like—it wasn’t a kitchen, but they sat down and they were going to tutor us in math and English and stuff. So they started math, and I was really good in math. And so, Ronnie and Michael and Gloria were pretty good in English and stuff, too. So they started and they realized that—I didn’t realize this at the time, but what happened was after about an hour, they said, “These guys are just as sharp as anybody else, I guess.” And so, we just were tutored for about maybe an hour, and then we went out and played basketball with their sons. They had two sons that actually went to Stratford—or were going to Stratford. They were sixth graders at the time. Then we—and we actually came up there. I went up there for about—I don’t know—several weekends. This was on Saturdays. And we really didn’t [00:15:00] do much tutoring. And I really didn’t understand until I got to school, until I got my first week at Stratford. I didn’t understand what—like I said, we had been told that it’s going to be academically challenging or something like that. And I’ll relate this story. The first week at Stratford, after the first day—this is the first week—I got an assignment. I think it was like Wednesday from—in our English class or general education class. All it was—it was—we had to go home and write some sentences. We were just studying—it was English grammar. And so, we were studying sentences—write sentences and using certain parts of speech—you know, nouns, pronouns, subjects, verbs, and all of that—and we’re going to, the next day, present the sentences and do structure diagrams and all of that. I went home, and I must have spent hours. And I was trying. [00:16:00] I’ve got to make the best prose I possibly can. William F. Buckley would be proud of me. It was about twenty-five sentences you had to write. I took them to school the next day, and we got to class, and I think it was Mrs. Bowman that was our general ed teacher. So she calls one of the students up to go up to the board and write the sentences and break it down, and it was some sentence like, ‘He hit the ball,’ or something like that. They all were in that vein, and I looked at it, and I thought to my—this is what I actually thought to myself. I said, “These kids are as dumb as I am.” (laughter) INTERVIEWER 1: Maybe dumber. (laughter) NARRATOR: Yeah. And so, after that, that was an awakening. After that, I realized, like you said, there were smart [00:17:00] —a lot of smart kids and there were a lot of dumb kids, and they’re kids. They’re not the so-called superior beings that we were kind of led to believe in our preparation. You know. INTERVIEWER 1: Let’s go back to that first day and describe the first day. NARRATOR: Okay. Let’s see. I remember getting up, getting ready, and I think my mom was—she was probably—she told me later she was a nervous wreck. INTERVIEWER 1: I’m sure. NARRATOR: Yeah. And I was kind of. I wasn’t—because I was there with my buddies. Actually, Ronnie and Michael and I were really good friends because we played softball together. Gloria—I knew Gloria, but I kind of felt sorry for her because she was the only girl. But so, we went down, and we all gathered at Ronnie Deskin’s house. [00:18:01] And there were reporters there and then all the people—community leaders. And then, we sat around and they took pictures. We got some pictures, then we piled into Mr. Jones’ car and went down to Stratford, and I guess on Old Dominion Drive they let us out, and we went—we actually went in the back of the school, not the main entrance at the front. I remember going down and getting off—crossing Old Dominion Drive. They had blocked it off—and then walking down the long pathway near the football field and tons—well, it seems like just a gauntlet of Arlington County police. They were in their riot gear with helmets and their riot gear. Actually, we were walking in by ourselves. They purposely had us come after school started, so we just went in. We went into the central entrance near the flagpole [00:19:01] in the back, went to the principal’s office, Mr. Richmond. They sort of had—they had a conference and they told us what to expect and all of this, tried to calm us I guess. And then, we were escorted down to our first class, and I remember going into—well, he was—my math teacher was Mr. Marks—and going into the class and seeing about thirty or—thirty all-white faces, and it was kind of tense. He was pretty good because he shook our hands and stuff and said, “Kids, this is—” and had us sit down. He had a seat and a desk for us. It was right up front. [00:20:02] And that was a Monday, I believe. Yeah, it was a Monday. And then, the next day—I mean it went okay. That class—and then I remember the first period bell ringing and going out in the hallways, and Stratford was a lot bigger than HB. I went to HB first. And I was going out in the hallway and seeing this mass of humanity changing classes, and people were kind of—pretty much—I think they were kind of staring. People were kind of—you know—wanted to ignore us. But it was tense, and then that day after school, we went back to—I guess actually we went back to my house, and then we had this press conference with the—and I remember the Washington Post and the local television stations were there and had big cameras set up, [00:21:01] and a guy interviewed us. The next day was quite different. I mean I think they still had police there but not as many. But that day was sort of the icebreaker because there was a kid that was sitting in front of me. He was Charles Aragon—Alagon—Aragon, and Mr. Marks said—I don’t remember what he said, but they were—something happened, and he cracked this joke and kind of broke the ice on the whole thing. And from sort of that time on, people were friendly and stuff and it was—so it made that experience a lot less—I mean a lot more palatable. And I wish I could remember what he said, but for the life of me, I can’t. But it was— INTERVIEWER 1: The kid said? NARRATOR: The kid. Yeah. His name was Charles Alagon, and I think he was—actually, he had volunteered, from what I found out, to be kind of [00:22:02] —to befriend us and all that kind of stuff. They asked kids beforehand, and he was one of them. I actually got to be pretty good friends with him and his father. His father was a captain in the Pentagon in the Navy. He was a captain in the Navy and worked at the Pentagon. I can say that at that time—I don’t know if they—I don’t think they do this anymore. At that time, you had periods where your class stayed pretty much together—you know, your math class and your speech class. INTERVIEWER 1: So it was the same group of— NARRATOR: Same group, different periods. You’re all in the same homeroom, and they purposely put us in these sections that were seven-six and seven-eight, and these kids kind of made up of military kids and state department kids, because the Washington, D.C. area is all—and because I guess they thought that these—because they’d [00:23:00] been around other areas, not just the South, they would probably be more at ease with whole process. INTERVIEWER 1: Now, you didn’t all four go into the same group. NARRATOR: No. Seven-six and seven—Ronnie and I were in the same section, I guess, and then Michael and Gloria were in another section. Two and two they split us. INTERVIEWER 1: Right. Now, there was some talk about they had some people kind of take you around. I mean I can’t—you had to change classes or go to lunch. Was there somebody that was assigned to you to—? NARRATOR: Yeah. For us, it was Charles and I can’t remember the other people. There was another one of his friends that kind of went with us and said where the next room was because everybody—because we came in in the middle of the year, and they were pretty familiar with Stratford and where to go. [00:24:00] So they took us around, and they kind of escorted us. And I remember walking in the hallways. There were some stares, of course. And I must admit, there was some hostility, not really—you know-some of it was overt and some of it was kind of covert, but I remember one—I had a locker, and the kid next to me – as he saw me at the locker, he would stand out and he would stay away in the hall until I left. Or if he was at the locker [00:25:01] and I came and he didn’t see me till I got to my locker, he would stuff his books and run away—right away leave and stuff, he and his friend. So they were—I remember that. And then, there was not—there may have been sneers and stuff. I don’t remember overt name-calling. So all in all, I can say it was nothing like Little Rock or places in the South. So my experience—I can say my experiences there were, on the whole, fairly good. I can’t say that for some of the other kids. I think Michael and Ronnie and I kind of agree that it was—the process was not nearly as traumatic as we thought it would be. Gloria being the only girl, I think she was lonely. I mean it went well, she was a little bit more–but, [00:26:02] I’m not quite sure. And then, I know some of the kids that came after us. They have mixed feelings about the whole process. INTERVIEWER 1: So did you make—as the time went on, because you were there for a while, did you make white friends as such? NARRATOR: Oh, I did. Actually, in the eighth grade, it was David—you know. These people I—David Ferguson, I think, was in the eighth grade. I kind of hung around with him quite a bit in the eighth grade. We became good friends. But mainly, we were among the black friends, and we went home, and then we didn’t have any school—I mean any outside activities. We were friends in school, but we never did socialize, so I can say that. INTERVIEWER 1: Okay. NARRATOR: On through my high school career, I played football. Ronnie and I played football, so we knew a lot of the football players and stuff. In fact, [00:27:00] it was kind of nice meeting everybody a year and a half ago at our reunion. INTERVIEWER 1: So, by that time, the athletics were integrated, because at first they were not. That's my understanding. NARRATOR: Exactly. Yeah, all through Stratford, there was no—because I think that was a Virginia law. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, I’m sure. NARRATOR: Yeah. It was a Virginia law—no social active, no athletics, no intermingling of that. And that changed, I believe, when I—and not in the ninth grade. When we went to W&L in the tenth grade—tenth, eleventh, twelfth grade and high school—yeah. And there was no—you didn’t go to prom. I don’t know. Yeah, I can’t remember going. I can’t remember a junior high school prom. I didn’t go, anyway. But anyway, there were no dances at that time. [00:28:00] It later opened up in high school. INTERVIEWER 1: So also the social activities also— NARRATOR: Yeah, the social activities started opening up. After I went to W&L, they started. They used to have the socials. They used to have the after-football-game dances at Mount Olivet [United Methodist Church] INTERVIEWER 1: Oh, yeah. NARRATOR: It was 16th Street and Lee Road. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, I know. Yeah. NARRATOR: Everybody met there. But that was quite a few years after the original integration. INTERVIEWER 1: Right. So looking back on it now, are you glad you did it? NARRATOR: All in all, I can’t say a hundred percent, no. There were advantages and—we kind of discussed this. The community of Halls Hill—that kind of changed after that. In some ways, we were—I didn’t feel that much, [00:29:00] but one of my friends, Leslie Carmichael, said she felt kind of ostracized by the black people. Oh, you’re going to that white school. And then you didn’t really socialize with the white kids and stuff, so you felt kind of isolated. So some people have bad memories. The community did change, integration was good for us, but I don’t know if this is directly a result of integration or just the changing times. I think as the years went by, the so-called discipline or the family—I mean the family unit—respect for your elders and all that stuff kind of waned, and that could be just general society. But I think it had something to do with integration, because kids got more— [00:30:00] I want to say independent. They got more— INTERVIEWER 1: Well, they were out and about in the world more. They weren’t just in that community. NARRATOR: Yeah. They were in the community, but they know there are a lot of problems in there. Like I said, I keep harping back on Halls Hill. There was just respect for parents. I wouldn’t say you did what you were told, but you didn’t—it was unheard of to really sass your—I mean parents. And nowadays, people can just cuss them out or something. I mean actually, they’re really disrespectful. And you called everybody Mr. This and Mrs. That. In fact, I still do to this day. Anybody who’s older than me and is living, you remember them. They’re quite old now, but that’s just the way it was. It could be just the change—a lot of it is just the change in society. [00:31:01] But I think a lot of it has to do with the breakdown—I mean the integration, and that was one of the bad sides. But on the plus side, Stratford and W&L were good schools. But I must say my elementary school was very good, too. We had some really good teachers. And so we became more—it was easier to deal with people that were not your race, not your kind. You learned to deal with other people in society, so in that respect, I think it was good INTERVIEWER 1: Well, Hoffman-Boston, who had a stellar reputation for teaching and so forth—I mean it’s always had a good— [00:31:59] so that part of the county they were getting—I know they closed in ’64, I guess, but that was one of the things you always hear about—how well educated those students were. NARRATOR: Yeah. I know because my brother said that. But I only went to Hoffman—HB for one semester. I remember. Yeah. There were some really good teachers, but I just—I do remember my first through sixth-grade teachers at Langston. All of them knew my name. A lot of them—most of them lived in the community, too, and attended the same churches and all of that. So you knew them, and they were really good, I must admit, and they cared about the students. Most of them were pretty disciplined, and they did things back then you wouldn’t tolerate today—what they call corporal punishment, I guess. [00:33:00] But I must admit that they were very good teachers. And I could say just one other thing. I think our parents’ generation—our parents—I didn’t realize until—how it affected them at the time, because you’re twelve, and you’re kind of in your own world or with your buddies. But my parents went through a lot. All the parents. They were frightened because—they were very nervous because it was their kids and stuff. And once you start having kids, you get a different perspective on that. And my mom told me that she was scared to death. When I came home sort of nonchalantly, I think she had a sigh of relief or something. Maybe she thought something was wrong with me. [00:34:01] But I really respect them for that. INTERVIEWER 1: How did your brother feel? He chose not to. How did he feel about you doing it? And did that change anything in your relationship or—? NARRATOR: No, it didn’t. He just wanted to stay at HB because of his friends. If he was—he was there a year. He’s a couple grades ahead of me, so he had been there, and he had all his friends. I had my friends, too, but my running buddies, shall we say, were Mike and Ronnie at the time, so I didn’t mind. So that’s why he didn’t want to go. But I don’t think it affected us one bit that I was going to Stratford and he was going to HB. And had other—just there were different problems… INTERVIEWER 1: Right. Well, everybody— NARRATOR: [00:35:00] Mom loves you best or something like that. My sister and my brother, to this day, they said they called me Baby Boy because they said I was spoiled, which is not true. She was the only girl and the youngest. She was the one that was spoiled. I can say that. Anyway. But no, I’m just saying that because I think all in all we had great community leaders and great parents. I can just say that Arlington-and Halls Hill-was a good place to grow up. I think it probably still is. I haven’t been back here in forty-some years, but it has changed. Oh, my God. I mean architecture here is funny. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah. NARRATOR: And you guys have a traffic problem here. I thought you all—you know LA is bad. LA is really horrible. INTERVIEWER 1: You think we’re worse? NARRATOR: [00:36:00] It’s not quite as bad, but it’s bad. I don’t remember it being like this when I was in it. INTERVIEWER 1: So then, you went on to Howard, which was totally different because it was a black college. NARRATOR: Traditionally black. INTERVIEWER 1: And you said you studied—you became a defense—in defense— NARRATOR: Yeah. I majored in electrical engineering, got my BS at Howard and went out to the LA area and got a job with what, at that time, was called North American Rockwell, and we were working on the Apollo program when it started. And then later, there was a—called follow on to Apollo. I only worked there two years, and then I worked ten years at a place called TRW, which is now part of North and growing. The defense industry has consolidated and changed over the years. But after that, I worked thirty-five years at aerospace, which I retired from. [00:37:00] And actually, I’m still working as a—they call it a retiree casual, so you just work when you want to work, but you’re kind of limited in your hours. And it’s fine with me. Great. INTERVIEWER 1: Do you have children? NARRATOR: I have two step kids and then a bunch of grandkids—Eric and Nicole. They live in Arizona. Eric lives in Arizona, and Nicole lives in LA. Well, I must admit Nicole’s sort of a—shall we say a problem child. We have—but anyway, we raised our granddaughter, Natalie, and Natalie is the gem of my life. But she’s actually twenty-seven now, and she’s getting married. She’s engaged. She’s getting married in August, and she’s quite successful. She moved to Florida. Of course, her fiancé is there. But she’s doing quite well. [00:38:01] She and my—well, she’s close to me, but she and my wife are—they talk to each other every day, especially now that they’re planning the wedding. INTERVIEWER 1: Well, yes. That's a big deal. (laughs) NARRATOR: We can go on about that. I got the credit card out. That's the extent of my participation. INTERVIEWER 1: Right. I was going to say, do they have any idea of what your role in all this was? That's interesting to me. NARRATOR: Not really. I’ve never really talked to them about it. I got a call from Natalie. I got a text and a call from Natalie yesterday. She was reminding me of Valentine’s Day. Oh, good thing. But anyway, for my wife. But she did say, “I want to hear all about—when you get back,” because we haven’t talked. She’s actually going to be in LA next week, [00:39:00] so she wants to know about the experience because I guess she has an interest now because of—she found out that I’m going back. I went back on the second and now for Halls Hill celebration. So she has an interest. INTERVIEWER 1: Well, that’s good. NARRATOR: Uh-huh (affirmative). INTERVIEWER 1: Because it was pivotal. I mean it was pivotal. Really it was. NARRATOR: I think it was. INTERVIEWER 1: Not just for Arlington but for the state of Virginia. NARRATOR: Oh, yeah, yeah. We were—actually, they—we have the distinction of being the first because I think they integrated—well, Norfolk was just a few—it was the same day, I believe, but it was a couple hours later. So we can claim we were the first. INTERVIEWER 1: That's all that matters to Arlington. You were the first, even if it was by a minute. NARRATOR: Yes. We were the first. INTERVIEWER 2: And is it something that you feel is very pivotal in your own life? Do you feel like that’s a major event? NARRATOR: Oh, it’s a major event because I remember. There are certain things you—especially the first day. [00:40:00] You recall certain things, unfortunately, like assassinations. And it was pivotal since I had—I did have to make a new set of friends— besides Michael and Ronnie and Gloria—at school, and it was slow. The first year we were there or the first semester—I mean the second semester of the first year, it was a slow process. We did have, like I said, the couple guys that we befriended. And then as time went on, the ice broke more. But I feel that it was—all in all, I had a fairly good experience. INTERVIEWER 1: I was going to ask you about your teachers. Were any—how did they relate to you all? NARRATOR: For the most part, it was pretty good. [00:41:01] Mr. Marks was—he was on the panel at Stratford. He was very good. He was in math. He was only twenty-six at the time. And then we had Michael in the—Michael’s math teacher was on the panel. She’s 104 now. INTERVIEWER 1: Mrs. Miller. NARRATOR: Mrs. Miller. She’s 104. Wow. It’s amazing she remembers. I just remember my math teacher, Mrs. Lee in the eighth grade. Or was it algebra? She was very helpful. Science teacher in ninth grade was pretty help—was pretty—and I don’t—I guess there was some teachers that were kind of apprehensive or something or—if I can use that term. Or standoffish. [00:42:00] That could be—I don’t know if it was race related or not. But you tend to remember the ones that were helpful. And there was no real—like I said, I don’t think there was any teachers that were—that I had that were openly hostile or even overtly hostile. INTERVIEWER 1: Is there anything else? INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah. Was there anything—after all the training that you had leading up, was there anything that you weren’t expecting to happen or that surprised you that you didn’t feel you had been trained for but that was either—? Yeah. NARRATOR: Let’s see. Not really, except what I mentioned about the preparations. I was shocked to find that the kids were [00:43:01] pretty much the same as— INTERVIEWER 1: Level. NARRATOR: —the same level academically as I was, because I was prepared to be struggling and catching up. And I didn’t have to. That's about the only thing I can say about that. INTERVIEWER 2: So you were just over prepared. Yeah. NARRATOR: Well, yeah. Maybe in some cases. I don’t know if you noticed, but in the pictures, we were dressed really nicely for the time. And if you notice—and I noticed that after about a week, the kids were dressed like high school kids. Not like they are today, but still they were kind of more casual. So eventually—I didn’t like dressing up anyway (laughs), so that started changing as the weeks went by. [00:44:00] So I got more like them, and in fact, that was something I was thankful for. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah. Can you think of anything else? INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah. Well, so when you were young going into it, you didn’t really realize the gravity of what it was. Was there a moment when you did sort of? Was there an ‘aha’ moment? Did it sort of trickle slowly through your life of what it meant to do this? NARRATOR: Yeah. It trickled slowly. There was no ‘aha’ moment. Well, let me take that back. Yeah. There was a moment I regret because of something I did wrong, I can say. They had the twenty-fifth anniversary in 1989, no it couldn’t have been 89, 1985 or something, they were going to do a thing, and they wanted me to come back. I was living in LA at the time, and I said, [00:45:00] “Uh…” They sent a Washington Post reporter out here and I said no. And then I remembered getting a call from one of the leaders—Mrs. Marx, probably—and she said she would pay for me to fly back. I said, “Oh, God.” It hit me there. I said, “Oh, my God.” I still turned it down, but I kind of felt really—I don’t know what I was doing. I wasn’t married. Yeah, I was married. I don’t know if we really—we really didn’t have anything planned. I could have gone, and I just felt that I didn’t want to come. And when she said that—you know. I could afford it. INTERVIEWER 1: Sure. NARRATOR: And I really felt bad about that. INTERVIEWER 1: Was that Barbara Marx? NARRATOR: Barbara Marx. INTERVIEWER 1: Yes. Uh-huh (affirmative). NARRATOR: And I think I sent her a letter later apologizing or an e-mail. What was it? It was a letter. [00:46:01] But that’s one—if you can call it an ‘aha’ moment—yeah. INTERVIEWER 1: Is there anything else you’d like to add? NARRATOR: Let’s see. Not really. Like I said, this is—it does bring back memories, I guess. I’ve been—the one at Stratford on the second and this. I was interviewed by Carmella Hamm last night at my cousin’s house, and we’re going to this—tonight, we’re going to the Langston—that’s not just for us. That's for Langston Elementary. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah. NARRATOR: But it is—even though it’s cold, it’s nice being back in Arlington and Halls Hill and just driving around the neighborhood, bringing back all the memories. Most of them are pretty fond memories, and I think that’s roots. [00:47:01] And so— INTERVIEWER 1: One other thing I didn’t mention was people talk all the time about the wall that was there in Halls Hill. What do you remember? NARRATOR: I remember it. It was pretty—it was all around the—you know. Especially around 17th Street. Not Cameron Street. It was the next street over behind that, and it was a wooden wall. But in places, it was a cinderblock wall. I think that—this was a small part of it. But in the ’60s, it was renamed, and we started calling it the Berlin Wall, because after—it was ’61 or whenever that they put up the real one, so that was the moniker it got in the early ’60s. It separated the so-called—we called it the white section. I do remember—okay, if I can [00:48:00] relate to this—about my—I forgot to mention this, actually—interacting with white people. Every Halloween, we’d go trick-or-treating, and we used to go up to what we called the white section up there—22nd Street, across George Mason Drive—because they were the only ones that gave us tons of candy. Anyway, you know. Kids have masks on, and the people were pretty—and that was a big thing when you were in the second, third, and fourth grade for trick-or-treating, and we just went—you know. That was another thing that’s different today. Nobody lets their—if you were at that age, you let your kid go alone for pretty good reasons. But you did it in groups, and so that was a fond memory from my experience. INTERVIEWER 1: There had to be—I mean there had to be resentment about that, but was that ever—was that ever talked about particularly in—? [00:49:00] I mean everybody knew it was there, and it separated you. NARRATOR: Oh, the wall? INTERVIEWER 1: Yes. NARRATOR: Yes, it was—I guess it was sort of—it was—it certainly wasn’t a pleasant thing, and there was resentment. There wasn’t open hostility. We weren’t that close to it, relatively so. I didn’t get to have much interaction there, but I know you didn’t—you did not interact with the people on the other side of the wall, and they didn’t interact with you. It was the way it was, I guess. It did become—oh, I must admit there was—on 16th Street, which is right just south of the wall, I guess. There were a couple of homes that had these [00:50:00] —what do you call them? Those hitching posts with the stable boy. That was—that was a very negative emblem for us. I think one day—I think some of the—and sometime somebody did—they vandalized it. You know, knocked his head off or something like that. This was in the mid ’60s or something like that. But I remember passing because when—coming home from—this is when I was at W&L. I used to walk home going up 16th Street, and you had to pass that statue all the time. INTERVIEWER 1: Right. Anything else you can think of? This is your time. NARRATOR: (laughs) Oh, my time. No, that’s pretty much it, I guess. [00:51:01] Like I said, it was an experience. It was a seminal experience, and I didn’t realize it until later in life. I must say we were—they said we were part of it. I mean we were—the four of us were the vanguards and everything, but I think myself—I believe the community leaders—the parents, especially, and the community leaders, the NAACP, and even the white community that supported us deserve 90 percent of the credit. I firmly believe that. INTERVIEWER 1: Well, thank you very much for doing this. We appreciate it. [00:51:47] (end of audio)   Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 13, 2016, regarding his life and his experience as one of the first students to desegregate Arlington Public Schools. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Format Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_edited.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/79b9e3ef4516ddd274ee790b9ac812d4.mp3 07f735a8601b3290408284154c095dfd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Activism and Decision to Go Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his and his parents' involvement in desegregation activism and his decision to go to Stratford. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Activism and Decision to Go Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/cb2b82d730d2657fed79db7a46950d94.pdf e9a53a9b24588a42316a41b9e2c83658 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 Activism and Decision to Go Clip INTERVIEWER 1: [00:03:58] Okay. So were your parents active in the desegregation movement? And how did that work out? NARRATOR: [00:04:04] They were a little passive. They weren’t the act—they weren’t as active as Ms. Hamm or Ms. Cosley or Ms. Deskins. They were the three really movers and the most active participants. My parents—my mom and dad were sort of passive. I mean not passive. They were participants, and I remember they gave us a choice. Do we want to be a part of the desegregation suit? When I say ‘they,’ I mean they gave us—I meant my brother and I, because my sister was fairly young at the time. And I said yes, and my brother said no. He wanted to stay at HB. So where some of the other kids’ parents said, “You’re going to do this,” or—you know—whether you like it or not. And I was—so for that, I kind of— [00:05:01] in later years, I kind of appreciated that they did give us the choice and didn’t force it upon us, because some kids—they were forced upon them. I don’t think they had a very fond memory of the whole experience. I wouldn’t say nobody had it. There were really no fond—I mean I can’t say fond memories, but they had a—shall we say a negative experience, a negative memory. INTERVIEWER 1: Do you know why you said yes at the time? Were you just adventurous? NARRATOR: Okay. A couple of things. I was kind of adventurous. I said—you know. It was sort of, hey, this will be cool maybe. And at the time, we were bussed down to HB in south Arlington. That was the school, and I hated getting up in the morning and getting on and riding the bus. I really did for some reason, because I’m lazy. I didn’t like to get up that early, but I just didn’t like it. I said, “Oh, gee. I’ll just walk down to school or something.” Although the walk took just as long as the bus ride, [00:06:00] it turns out, because I had Stratford from Arlington. But at the time—I just remember that, and that was one of the reasons. So it wasn’t—I mean I didn’t have any overreaching goal. I mean at twelve years old, you really don’t understand what the movement’s all about. You don’t know. And so I thought it would be kind of a relief from the drudgery of (laughs) the school bus ride. I mean that’s sort of trivial, but that was one of the reasons. And you know, it was just—I mean they kind of impressed upon us the difficulties we might encounter and everything, but it didn’t daunt me. [00:06:44] INTERVIEWER 1: [00:08:57.4] Now, the churches played a strong role in this. NARRATOR: Yeah. INTERVIEWER 1: And so, there must have been a lot of leadership there that— NARRATOR: Yes, yes. A lot of the church leaders, the ministers, and the deacons in the Baptist church and the lay people in the Methodist church—I went to Calloway, so a lot of those leaders were very active. And during the integration movement, there was not only the church leaders of the black church, but we did have some—a lot—the white churches, especially the Unitarian church on Arlington Boulevard, I think. INTERVIEWER 1: Yes. NARRATOR: And people from—representatives from there—and actually, they started an exchange going to the Unitarian church trying to get acclimated, shall we say, to what’s coming. [00:10:02] And so, I can say, yes, there was a lot of church support, support from the community churches and the church leaders. INTERVIEWER 1: Right, and the NAACP was— NARRATOR: Oh, yeah. They were—especially the lawyers. I can’t remember some of the names—Robinson, Tucker, I don’t even know if they’re still around these days. They were responsible for the lawsuit—conducted the lawsuit that was brought. And as far as the lawsuit was concerned, if I may digress, I remember we went down to the Alexander Courthouse for the hearings, and I guess there were pictures. [00:11:00] I don’t know if you’ve seen the pictures, but there were pictures of the original thirty plaintiffs that—school—the kids on the steps of the courthouse as we were leaving. And I remember that clearly. And I also remember sitting in the courtroom. I guess it was all day one day—and being bored stiff because you’re twelve years old, and you don’t really understand it. These lawyers are talking, and a lot of times, they’re having conferences with the judge, and so they’re whispering, and you’re twiddling your thumbs, and we were kind of told to be—you know, act properly. So you had to sit in your chair and behave, and so that was—it wasn’t very pleasant. INTERVIEWER 1: [00:12:00] Yeah, for a twelve-year-old— NARRATOR: I just remember for a twelve-year-old, it was—I’d rather be out playing basketball. (laughs) I think it was in the summer, too. I’m not sure. Maybe not. But anyway, you wanted—you’d rather be somewhere else. (laughs) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Activism and Decision to Go Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his and his parents' involvement in desegregation activism and his decision to go to Stratford. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Activism and Decision to Go Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/86183d2d239645a8c8cc113bbbed6b71.mp3 92542da2ebef168b2e78406e8b0c9341 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Day Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of his first day at Stratford. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_First Day Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/bed9c9870e6958a9ff3ecd7c7b55d3dd.pdf 68afac400e09bd2bc34a0e352a7b5ee2 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 First Day Clip INTERVIEWER 1: Let’s go back to that first day and describe the first day. NARRATOR: Okay. Let’s see. I remember getting up, getting ready, and I think my mom was—she was probably—she told me later she was a nervous wreck. INTERVIEWER 1: I’m sure. NARRATOR: Yeah. And I was kind of. I wasn’t—because I was there with my buddies. Actually, Ronnie and Michael and I were really good friends because we played softball together. Gloria—I knew Gloria, but I kind of felt sorry for her because she was the only girl. But so, we went down, and we all gathered at Ronnie Deskin’s house. [00:18:01] And there were reporters there and then all the people—community leaders. And then, we sat around and they took pictures. We got some pictures, then we piled into Mr. Jones’ car and went down to Stratford, and I guess on Old Dominion Drive they let us out, and we went—we actually went in the back of the school, not the main entrance at the front. I remember going down and getting off—crossing Old Dominion Drive. They had blocked it off—and then walking down the long pathway near the football field and tons—well, it seems like just a gauntlet of Arlington County police. They were in their riot gear with helmets and their riot gear. Actually, we were walking in by ourselves. They purposely had us come after school started, so we just went in. We went into the central entrance near the flagpole [00:19:01] in the back, went to the principal’s office, Mr. Richmond. They sort of had—they had a conference and they told us what to expect and all of this, tried to calm us I guess. And then, we were escorted down to our first class, and I remember going into—well, he was—my math teacher was Mr. Marks—and going into the class and seeing about thirty or—thirty all-white faces, and it was kind of tense. He was pretty good because he shook our hands and stuff and said, “Kids, this is—” and had us sit down. He had a seat and a desk for us. It was right up front. [00:20:02] And that was a Monday, I believe. Yeah, it was a Monday. And then, the next day—I mean it went okay. That class—and then I remember the first period bell ringing and going out in the hallways, and Stratford was a lot bigger than HB. I went to HB first. And I was going out in the hallway and seeing this mass of humanity changing classes, and people were kind of—pretty much—I think they were kind of staring. People were kind of—you know—wanted to ignore us. But it was tense, and then that day after school, we went back to—I guess actually we went back to my house, and then we had this press conference with the—and I remember the Washington Post and the local television stations were there and had big cameras set up, [00:21:01] and a guy interviewed us. The next day was quite different. I mean I think they still had police there but not as many. But that day was sort of the icebreaker because there was a kid that was sitting in front of me. He was Charles Aragon—Alagon—Aragon, and Mr. Marks said—I don’t remember what he said, but they were—something happened, and he cracked this joke and kind of broke the ice on the whole thing. And from sort of that time on, people were friendly and stuff and it was—so it made that experience a lot less—I mean a lot more palatable. And I wish I could remember what he said, but for the life of me, I can’t. But it was— INTERVIEWER 1: The kid said? NARRATOR: The kid. Yeah. His name was Charles Alagon, and I think he was—actually, he had volunteered, from what I found out, to be kind of [00:22:02] —to befriend us and all that kind of stuff. They asked kids beforehand, and he was one of them. I actually got to be pretty good friends with him and his father. His father was a captain in the Pentagon in the Navy. He was a captain in the Navy and worked at the Pentagon. I can say that at that time—I don’t know if they—I don’t think they do this anymore. At that time, you had periods where your class stayed pretty much together—you know, your math class and your speech class. [00:24:00] So they took us around, and they kind of escorted us. And I remember walking in the hallways. There were some stares, of course. And I must admit, there was some hostility, not really—you know-some of it was overt and some of it was kind of covert, but I remember one—I had a locker, and the kid next to me, as he saw me at the locker, he would stand out and he would stay away in the hall until I left. Or if he was at the locker [00:25:01] and I came and he didn’t see me till I got to my locker, he would stuff his books and run away—right away leave and stuff, he and his friend. So they were—I remember that. And then, there was not—there may have been sneers and stuff. I don’t remember overt name-calling. So all in all, I can say it was nothing like Little Rock or places in the South. So my experience—I can say my experiences there were, on the whole, fairly good. I can’t say that for some of the other kids. I think Michael and Ronnie and I kind of agree that it was—the process was not nearly as traumatic as we thought it would be. Gloria being the only girl, I think she was lonely. I mean it went well, she was a little bit more–but, [00:26:02] I’m not quite sure. And then, I know some of the kids that came after us. They have mixed feelings about the whole process. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Day Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of his first day at Stratford. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_First Day Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/ac39d9f0d0ed5258bdffeb4307481358.mp3 2d5246a681aa125c24cf3b2265bc8677 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preparation Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of the preparation he and the other students received leading up to desegregation. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Preparation.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/af71506caef8c19c0e99df54b69b68c8.pdf 4c61fbf0551f731a4f677c33d4ba0d95 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 Preparation Clip INTERVIEWER 1: Of course. So I know that, leading up to this, you got a lot of preparation. Tell us about that. NARRATOR: Yeah. This is sort of a long—not a long story, but anyways, this is—the community leaders—Ms. Hamm, Ms. Cosley, Ms. Deskins and all the others—in conjunction with the NAACP and the whole organization did a lot of preparation on how to act, how to dress, what might happen when you go to school. You know, the abuse you may have to suffer, the name-calling and the stares and all of that. And this is a time of [00:13:00] passive resistance. You’re supposed to ignore it—suck it up and ignore it. But my dad did tell me. He said, “If somebody hits you, you’ve got permission to whale them.” So defend yourself, as it were. And then, there was also—because they thought—the thought at the time was that we weren’t maybe academically up to the level of the white kids that were at Stratford or in the white school system. We had—they had tutoring sessions, and a couple of things I remember. I went up to—this is after we did decide that the four of us were going to go. We went up to—gosh, I can’t remember the name. They were the church—Mrs. Wesson? She lived in Arlington, but I can’t remember [00:14:01] exactly where. Beyond Garden City, over in that area. Anyway, they were going to tutor us. So the first day we got there, it was in a room like—it wasn’t a kitchen, but they sat down and they were going to tutor us in math and English and stuff. So they started math, and I was really good in math. And so, Ronnie and Michael and Gloria were pretty good in English and stuff, too. So they started and they realized that—I didn’t realize this at the time, but what happened was after about an hour, they said, “These guys are just as sharp as anybody else, I guess.” And so, we just were tutored for about maybe an hour, and then we went out and played basketball with their sons. They had two sons that actually went to Stratford—or were going to Stratford. They were sixth graders at the time. Then we—and we actually came up there. I went up there for about—I don’t know—several weekends. This was on Saturdays. And we really didn’t [00:15:00] do much tutoring. And I really didn’t understand until I got to school, until I got my first week at Stratford. I didn’t understand what—like I said, we had been told that it’s going to be academically challenging or something like that. And I’ll relate this story. The first week at Stratford, after the first day—this is the first week—I got an assignment. I think it was like Wednesday from—in our English class or general education class. All it was—it was—we had to go home and write some sentences. We were just studying—it was English grammar. And so, we were studying sentences—write sentences and using certain parts of speech—you know, nouns, pronouns, subjects, verbs, and all of that—and we’re going to, the next day, present the sentences and do structure diagrams and all of that. I went home, and I must have spent hours. And I was trying. [00:16:00] I’ve got to make the best prose I possibly can. William F. Buckley would be proud of me. It was about twenty-five sentences you had to write. I took them to school the next day, and we got to class, and I think it was Mrs. Bowman that was our general ed teacher. So she calls one of the students up to go up to the board and write the sentences and break it down, and it was some sentence like, ‘He hit the ball,’ or something like that. They all were in that vein, and I looked at it, and I thought to my—this is what I actually thought to myself. I said, “These kids are as dumb as I am.” (laughter) INTERVIEWER 1: Maybe dumber. (laughter) NARRATOR: Yeah. And so, after that, that was an awakening. After that, I realized, like you said, there were smart [00:17:00] —a lot of smart kids and there were a lot of dumb kids, and they’re kids. They’re not the so-called superior beings that we were kind of led to believe in our preparation. You know. [00:17:17.5] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preparation Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of the preparation he and the other students received leading up to desegregation. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Preparation Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/dd57563fd6ef19d8d4020718ff4efc26.mp3 e017ea6761a81bba3376bac7eda7ab65 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregation, Hall's Hill, and The Wall Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of growing up in the neighborhood of Hall's Hill, a segregated but supportive community. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Segregation, Hall's Hill, and the Wall Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/3debc9846da1471253a31d7755c67d04.pdf d0b1a56628ecca52d40aa86d12119bf4 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 Segregation, Hall’s Hill, and “The Wall” Clip NARRATOR: [00:01:40.9] Okay. Yes, it was a very nice place to grow up. There were community leaders, and most people were—as far as the black community were concerned—I guess you would call it lower-middle class tradesmen. [00:02:01] A lot of people worked for the government. But I guess, generally, I just want to tell you that there were no—I mean we—there was no overt racism at the time. There were problems. I can remember early on when I was extremely young going down to the—I think it was Kanns or Hecht Company at the—in the Parkington—whatever you call it—Ballston-Parkington. INTERVIEWER 1: Parkington would have been Hecht’s. Yeah, right. NARRATOR: And the sign just said—in the bathroom, I can vaguely remember it saying ‘colored.’ Okay. But that was one of my first introductions to it, and that’s when I may have been about four or five years old. But other than that, I can say that it was just a nice place to grow up, and I’m thankful for it. [00:03:06] Oh, and like I said, I actually did have a great set of parents. I didn’t please them all the time, (laughs) but who does? I drove them nuts sometimes, but we did. And so, I think that’s pretty much it about my feelings about— [00:03:25] INTERVIEWER 2: [00:06:44] Uh-huh (affirmative). And before then, had your parents talked to you about segregation and race relations in Arlington and things like that? NARRATOR: Not extensively. They kind of mentioned [00:07:00] there were problems and stuff, and we lived in our community. It’s all black. If you weren’t really—I mean we couldn’t—we didn’t venture out that much from the Hill because of that, but they didn’t—I don’t believe that they—they didn’t say that you can’t go to these places, but they said there were certain places—your boundary. You really shouldn’t be going. I remember that they—you know. This is from when they became a—when I got a little older, when you could go out on your own, going to places like Peoples Drug Store and [00:08:00] there’s a restaurant called Tops at the time on George Mason Drive and Lee Highway. And they were saying you couldn’t—you could only go in the back if you wanted something for takeout, and that was our—not introduction, but that was one of our memories of the segregated—the segregation in Arlington. INTERVIEWER 1: Uh-huh (affirmative). But you had a lot of your own businesses and things within the community. NARRATOR: Yeah. There was actually—that was pre-integration. After that, it kind of died. They had the stores like Miss Allen’s stores, Mr. Hicks’ store. I’m trying to remember all this—local grocery stores, mom-and-pop organizations. So we did have those. Like I said, it was a community contained in itself, so that was good, I thought. [00:08:57.3] INTERVIEWER 1: [00:47:08] One other thing I didn’t mention was people talk all the time about the wall that was there in Halls Hill. What do you remember? NARRATOR: I remember it. It was pretty—it was all around the—you know. Especially around 17th Street. Not Cameron Street. It was the next street over behind that, and it was a wooden wall. But in places, it was a cinderblock wall. I think that—this was a small part of it. But in the ’60s, it was renamed, and we started calling it the Berlin Wall, because after—it was ’61 or whenever that they put up the real one, so that was the moniker it got in the early ’60s. It separated the so-called—we called it the white section. I do remember—okay, if I can [00:48:00] relate to this—about my—I forgot to mention this, actually—interacting with white people. Every Halloween, we’d go trick-or-treating, and we used to go up to what we called the white section up there—22nd Street, across George Mason Drive—because they were the only ones that gave us tons of candy. Anyway, you know. Kids have masks on, and the people were pretty—and that was a big thing when you were in the second, third, and fourth grade for trick-or-treating, and we just went—you know. That was another thing that’s different today. Nobody lets their—if you were at that age, you let your kid go alone for pretty good reasons. But you did it in groups, and so that was a fond memory from my experience. INTERVIEWER 1: There had to be—I mean there had to be resentment about that, but was that ever—was that ever talked about particularly in—? [00:49:00] I mean everybody knew it was there, and it separated you. NARRATOR: Oh, the wall? INTERVIEWER 1: Yes. NARRATOR: Yes, it was—I guess it was sort of—it was—it certainly wasn’t a pleasant thing, and there was resentment. There wasn’t open hostility. We weren’t that close to it, relatively so. I didn’t get to have much interaction there, but I know you didn’t—you did not interact with the people on the other side of the wall, and they didn’t interact with you. It was the way it was, I guess. It did become—oh, I must admit there was—on 16th Street, which is right just south of the wall, I guess. There were a couple of homes that had these [00:50:00] —what do you call them? Those hitching posts with the stable boy. That was—that was a very negative emblem for us. I think one day—I think some of the—and sometime somebody did—they vandalized it. You know, knocked his head off or something like that. This was in the mid ’60s or something like that. But I remember passing because when—coming home from—this is when I was at W&L. I used to walk home going up 16th Street, and you had to pass that statue all the time. INTERVIEWER 1: Right [00:50:47] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Segregation, Hall's Hill, and The Wall Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of growing up in the neighborhood of Hall's Hill, a segregated but supportive community. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Segregation, Hall's Hill, and the Wall Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/01ebbd1516fdb4c517a80610642d0c8a.mp3 1099bc976227c4769db6c0906bab7e68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sports and Social Activities Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of the desegregation of school athletics and social activities. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Sports Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/6529b840166c3ff6a0229aafa4f325ad.pdf f1264b0c197e459ac12fad88c3d031eb PDF Text Text ARLINGTON PUBLIC LIBRARY Oral History Project “Desegregation of Arlington Public Schools” NARRATOR: Lance Newman INTERVIEWER 1: Judy Knudsen INTERVIEWER 2: Joanna Dressel DATE: February 13, 2016 Sports and Social Activities Clip NARRATOR: On through my high school career, I played football. Ronnie and I played football, so we knew a lot of the football players and stuff. In fact, [00:27:00] it was kind of nice meeting everybody a year and a half ago at our reunion. INTERVIEWER 1: So, by that time, the athletics were integrated, because at first they were not. That's my understanding. NARRATOR: Exactly. Yeah, all through Stratford, there was no—because I think that was a Virginia law. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, I’m sure. NARRATOR: Yeah. It was a Virginia law—no social active, no athletics, no intermingling of that. And that changed, I believe, when I—and not in the ninth grade. When we went to W&L in the tenth grade—tenth, eleventh, twelfth grade and high school—yeah. And there was no—you didn’t go to prom. I don’t know. Yeah, I can’t remember going. I can’t remember a junior high school prom. I didn’t go, anyway. But anyway, there were no dances at that time. [00:28:00] It later opened up in high school. INTERVIEWER 1: So also the social activities also— NARRATOR: Yeah, the social activities started opening up. After I went to W&L, they started. They used to have the socials. They used to have the after-football-game dances at Mount Olivet [United Methodist Church] INTERVIEWER 1: Oh, yeah. NARRATOR: It was 16th Street and Lee Road. INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, I know. Yeah. NARRATOR: Everybody met there. But that was quite a few years after the original integration. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sports and Social Activities Clip - Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with Lance Newman on February 12, 2016, regarding his memories of the desegregation of school athletics and social activities. Interviewers are Judy Knudsen and Joanna Dressel. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213_Sports and Social Activities Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 86kbps Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:47 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lance Newman Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Location The location of the interview Arlington County, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judy Knudsen Joanna Dressel Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1950s-1980s Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lance Newman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13-Feb-16 Description An account of the resource Lance Newman was one of the first four students to break the segregation barriers in Arlington Public Schools by attending the previously all-white Stratford Junior High School in 1959. Mr. Newman grew up in the Hall’s Hill neighborhood, a historically African-American community in northern Arlington County. After graduating from Washington-Lee High School, Mr. Newman went on to attend Howard University. He was interviewed for the Arlington Public Library Oral History Program by Judith Knudsen and Joanna Dressel, and his interview is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from his oral history, regarding his preparation for his transition to Stratford, the events of the first day, and the experience of living in a tight-knit, though segregated, community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context newmanl20160213 Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Title A name given to the resource Oral History with Lance Newman, February 13, 2016 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://projectdaps.org/files/original/88ad90ac4fb73a38240df031ffb25d46.mp3 f4cc2c6c0bcfcb9835ad2d40b656d0e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984, Audio Recording Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County School Board Description An account of the resource Audio recording of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his life and his work on the Arlington County School Board. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/9b91cc127597fb976487cca22b8d99b4.pdf 294b2494e3ea6b8638a312566c115f39 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: James G. Stockard INTERVIEWERS: Edmund Campbell DATE: April 23, 1984 INTERVIEWER: This is Edmund Campbell of the Arlington County Library Oral History Project, and this is April 23, 1984. We have the privilege today of interviewing James G. Stockard, former resident of Arlington and now a resident of Fairfax County, Virginia, who served with distinction on the Arlington County School Board for a good many years and who was an ardent advocate of many things that he thought were important, and were important, and an ardent opponent of other things he thought were improper. Jim played an important role in the history of the Arlington schools and we're glad to have him here today. Jim, a few preliminary questions. When and where were you born? NARRATOR: Ed, I was born in Texas, on a farm about 50 miles south of Dallas, a little town named Frost, Texas, September 19, 1914. INTERVIEWER: That makes you 70 years old? NARRATOR: Almost. I will be in September. INTERVIEWER: And I think you told me that you have just come here from playing tennis. NARRATOR: That's right, Ed. I've played tennis since I was 10 or 12 years old. It's a part of my life. I probably wouldn't even be here if I hadn't played tennis for well over 50 years. And I beat most youngsters. INTERVIEWER: You play tennis every day, do you? NARRATOR: Just about every day; sometimes twice. INTERVIEWER: You're married and have children? NARRATOR: Yes. I've been married to Nadene B. Johns (Stockard) since February 10, 1940--44 years. We have three wonderful high-achiever children, all out in the business and professional world on their own. We have eight handsome, bright and potentially high-achiever grandchildren. INTERVIEWER: Probably the best in the world, aren't they? NARRATOR: I'm sure, I'm sure. And the Arlington schools get a great share of the credit for what they have made of themselves--our three children. INTERVIEWER: Jim, you resided in Arlington during what period of time? NARRATOR: Nadene and I lived in the District for a year after our marriage. We came out to live in Arlington County, namely the Buckingham Apartments, in the spring of 1941 and we stayed in Arlington for 28 years, exciting years, and left the County when we came back from the one-year overseas assignment with the United Nations in the Fall of 1970. INTERVIEWER: And you were engaged in what profession? NARRATOR: My profession is the field of human resources. More specifically, personnel management, and within that field you might say adult training, education and career development of people. INTERVIEWER: You had what educational background? NARRATOR: I was educated at The University of Texas, which I would like to say for the record is a great institution. I had a double major: business administration and education. INTERVIEWER: University of Texas, where? NARRATOR: Austin. This was during the Depression years, 1932 to 1936, so jobs in the private sector were hard to come by and I therefore used my interest in education to go into high school teaching, and that's where I met Nadene, my wife, in a satellite town out about 30 miles from Austin. We were teachers together; I was the commercial teacher and she was the English teacher the first year. INTERVIEWER: Then you came into the Washington area, and went into Government service? NARRATOR: Yes, after a year of high school teaching, which was paying the great sum of $90 a month for 9 months ($810 a year and they divided that by 12), I decided that the pastures looked a little greener in the public service at the national level, so I took a Civil Service exam for clerk-typist. I'd gone to business college right out of high school for 3 months and become a fast typist, so I took and passed a test, came up to Washington in October of 1937, and Nadene came up a couple of years later and we've been here ever since. I've been in the Washington area now since 1937, which is about 47 years. INTERVIEWER: In what capacity were you employed in the Federal Government? NARRATOR: I worked my way up from the next to the bottom rung on the ladder to a fairly responsible executive level position. I worked in four different departments and agencies: The Department of Commerce for about 15 years, General Services Administration for 8, the State Department's Foreign Aid agency for about 6, and my final tour was with the U.S. Postal Service corporation. My role at the latter was the most gratifying of all because I was chosen to plan and put in place the Postal Service Institute, which is a staff college similar to the nation's three military schools. It trains people to work in the Postal Service at the managerial level. INTERVIEWER: What got you interested in civic life in Arlington? NARRATOR: The answer is very simple. We moved from Buckingham after about 6 years to a private home out in the East Falls Church area on Washington Boulevard there. Walter Reed Elementary School was just across the street from us so our first child became a first grader in it, I believe in the year 1948 when he was 6 years old. My wife went to the first few PTA meetings and I stayed home with the children, and she said to me, "You've got to get interested in that PTA." So I did, and pretty soon I found myself in the presidency of that local PTA and then I became a delegate to the County Council of PTAs and through some turnover unexpected, in the top echelon of the County Council, within a year I was the president of the county-wide Council of PTAs. INTERVIEWER: Were you active in CCSI, the Committee for School Improvement? NARRATOR: To some extent. I was kind of a dormant member, encouraging it and doing whatever I could, but about the time I was to become active in that, I was going on to the School Board and the School Board was enough, because that literally generated for me 300 meetings a year. INTERVIEWER: How did you get on the School Board? NARRATOR: I was elected to my first term on the School Board because Arlingtonians had, by referendum, decided they wanted an elected Board and they then had a New England Town Hall system for choosing their candidates to run for office. I emerged in the Fall of 1955 as one of the candidates, one of the candidates sponsored by the Arlingtonians for a Better County (ABC) coalition, which at the same time was forming. INTERVIEWER: That was in 1955? NARRATOR: Yes, and I was on the slate of the first three School Board members to be endorsed by ABC, and I was elected by the people along with Barnard Joy and Barbara Riches in November 1955, and began my service on the Board in 1956. INTERVIEWER: You were elected to the School Board as a result of that nomination and election in 1955? NARRATOR: The election was in November 1955. INTERVIEWER: Did you take office on January 1, 1956? NARRATOR: Correct. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, the Supreme Court's decision in Brown vs. The Board of Education, which ordered desegregation of the nation's public schools with all deliberate speed, came out in 1954. Refreshing your recollection for a moment, the State of Virginia which had gone through a period of trauma on the subject, had appointed a Commission headed by State Senator Garland Gray, am I not correct? And they had come out with the so-called Gray Plan in late 1955, as I recall, which provided among other things for tuition grants to students who wanted to go to schools where there might be a person of another race and also provided in effect for local option, or decisions by the local school boards as to just how they would implement, if at all, the Supreme Court decision. Am I correct? NARRATOR: That was our understanding of the Gray Commission report, yes. INTERVIEWER: Well then, when you came into office on January 1, 1956, you came into a maelstrom of problems, did you not, in connection with this? NARRATOR: Yes, I did. The Board then had a policy of meeting twice a month, and I believe it was at the very first meeting, around the middle of January, when the issue came onto our table of the Board. INTERVIEWER: What was the special acute matter that brought it to the table? NARRATOR: As you know, Ed, Arlington was a bedroom for Washington and we had a growing population and this meant that we were involved in expanding the little red schoolhouse and other building construction needs. Due to planning time and construction time, the Board realized it had to commit itself on how to use existing buildings and where to put new buildings. To us the Gray Commission had signaled local option, so we simply took the position that we would, in an orderly way over a period of three years, phase into desegregated public education in Arlington, and so we voted accordingly on the issue that was really involved more at the time with school construction than anything else. INTERVIEWER: Did you have some problem as to whether or not to expand existing all-Negro schools? NARRATOR: Yes, yes. We had three little gerrymandered school districts in the County for Black students, and this had been true historically, and we had to decide whether we were going to further expand those buildings because the Black population was expanding as well as the White population, or should we begin to phase some of the Black children into the White schools? We decided the latter because it seemed to be public policy both of the nation and the State and we wanted to be in compliance with all the public policy that we knew about. INTERVIEWER: Was that acceptable to the powers that be in Richmond? NARRATOR: No, Ed, of course it wasn't. In Richmond it was somewhat like an earthquake that we had last night in this area, I hear, and some of our political adversaries here in Arlington gratuitously rushed down to Richmond with an armload of Washington Posts reporting what we had done the night before. They planted one of those Washington Posts headlining the matter on the desk of every General Assemblyman, who just happened to be in session. The fat was in the fire from that moment forward. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any role or any specific role to play in relations with the General Assembly? NARRATOR: Yes, I did, Ed. You know, my grandfather on my mother's side was at Appomattox when General Lee finally had to throw in the towel and surrender, and my other grandfather also was in the Civil War on the side of the South; i.e., I had good credentials, people felt, for talking with those south side Virginians, and I tried to reconstruct my Southern accent as best I could. INTERVIEWER: The School Board designated you as their representative to go to Richmond? NARRATOR: Yes, they did. I was the School Board spokesman. There were many other spokesmen too, from other facets of community life. INTERVIEWER: From my understanding of the history, you didn't have very much success on that occasion, did you? NARRATOR: No, we got barely a half loaf in the compromise. INTERVIEWER: What was the agitation in the General Assembly--what happened? NARRATOR: One of the neighboring districts of the State, Stafford County, through one of its Delegates there (Mr. Moncure), introduced a measure which would have deprived Arlington of its elected School Board and thrown us all the way back to the appointive system. INTERVIEWER: Appointive system? NARRATOR: You know, the appointive system in some communities in Virginia is really pretty bad. The Legislature, as I understand it, appoints judges and judges appoint an electoral board; then the electoral board appoints the board of trustees and the board of trustees finally appoints a Superintendent. So you got the Superintendent about four levels removed from the people he's trying to serve. Fortunately, our compromise that they-- INTERVIEWER: Now, wait a minute. The system provided that the Circuit Judge, which as you say was elected by the Legislature, would appoint a school trustee electoral board, and that school trustee electoral board would choose the members of the school board? NARRATOR: They would. INTERVIEWER: They would choose the members of the school board, and that system still obtained in all counties of Virginia except Arlington? NARRATOR: There were no trustees in between the electoral board and the superintendent? INTERVIEWER: No. It's the School Trustee Electoral Board, I think is the name of it. The compromise that you referred to was what, sir? NARRATOR: The compromise was to allow Arlington to have its School Board members appointed by the governing body of the County, the Board of Supervisors, and also they agreed to have the grandfather clause and let those of us who were then serving on the School Board finish out our terms, so we got two compromises. INTERVIEWER: So as a result of that, you finished your term as an elected member? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And after that, were you re-appointed by the County Board? NARRATOR: Yes, sir, I was. I was re-appointed twice, each time to a four-year term. Somehow I got an extra six months out of the elected term, because I think the new mandate became effective July 1, even though the General Assembly voted in January. INTERVIEWER: You were then on the School Board 12-1/2 years? NARRATOR: Yes, sir. INTERVIEWER: During this period did you have any brushes with the General Assembly in connection with sex education? NARRATOR: Oh yes, yes we did. Again, some of our local political adversaries, that is, people we thought were not in step with the school improvement movement, they decided that the School Board was far too liberal in sex education matters. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, Mr. Robert Peck, who was at one time a School Board member, and at the time in question was a County Board member, and who had given an oral interview here, has stated that he was one of those who went to Richmond on this subject. Is he one of those you had in mind? NARRATOR: Yes, he is. You know, it became so bad that we had the scene of teachers and librarians in Arlington County having to clip pages out of biology books because they made some reference to human reproduction. INTERVIEWER: Was that as a result of General Assembly action? NARRATOR: Yes, it was. The General Assembly acted on the advice of some of these local interests who were pressing the matter, and the State Superintendent of Public Instruction had to enforce its action; i.e., he had to promulgate regulations to carry out the law. INTERVIEWER: As a result of General Assembly action, then, sex education in effect was taken out of the Arlington schools for a period of time? NARRATOR: It was suspended, yes. INTERVIEWER: Now the action of the General Assembly in providing for the appointed School Board instead of the elected School Board, while designed perhaps to make it more difficult to desegregate the Arlington schools, did not ultimately have that effect, did it? NARRATOR: No, it didn't. Thanks to the Federal Courts, Judge Bryan in Alexandria and the persistence of the NAACP and other groups, including, I'm sure, many people who were not working as members of groups but as individuals exerting their influence. INTERVIEWER: Judge Bryan entered an order, as I recall, in September 1958, directing the admission of four students from what was then the Halls Hill Negro School District, to the Stratford Junior High School. As I recall, that took place actually in February 1959. Were you present in the hearing before Judge Bryan? NARRATOR: Yes, I was. INTERVIEWER: Did you testify? NARRATOR: I don't believe I did, no. INTERVIEWER: The School Board at that time was composed of who? Do you recall? NARRATOR: I recall Barnard Joy for one. INTERVIEWER: Lee Bean? NARRATOR: Lee Bean, perhaps. INTERVIEWER: He was on, I believe. Mr. Peck was also on, was he not? NARRATOR: Maybe Helen Lane. INTERVIEWER: I believe that was it. NARRATOR: My memory is a little fuzzy. It's been about 30 years. INTERVIEWER: I believe the School Board at that time was composed of you, Barnard Joy, Lee Bean, Bob Peck and Helen Lane. Lee Bean, at this time, was he in your camp, so to speak, or was he in Mr. Peck's camp as far as the politics of the School Board was concerned? NARRATOR: I think on the hard issues he was on Peck's side, but I found Lee Bean to be much more moderate and I found Lee Bean to be a human being that I would like to be associated with. I enjoyed my relationship thoroughly with Lee Bean, but I felt he was considerably more conservative than I in getting on with the matter of desegregation as public policy. INTERVIEWER: You had no question as to his, shall I call it integrity, as far as- NARRATOR: No, no. Lee Bean is a gentleman and a scholar I am sure. I just disagreed with him on fundamentals on some issues. INTERVIEWER: Mrs. Lane was a different kind of person? NARRATOR: Mrs. Lane and I--we could not do much business together on the same wave length. She was anti-school improvement, anti- all of the things that seemed to me to be essential to a good public education system and I just didn't understand her. INTERVIEWER: Is she still living? NARRATOR: Yes, she is. Someone told me that they called her and-- INTERVIEWER: Am I correct that on one occasion she, as a School Board member, exercised what she claimed to be her purported authority to change the grade of her own daughter? NARRATOR: I do recall that, and this was very unusual, extraordinary. I just can't imagine any School Board member doing that. I see a School Board member as being a person who has to help formulate public policy and who stays out of day to day administration. INTERVIEWER: Well, there might be some question as to the legality of her action, in any event, might there not? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Jim, you tell me that you have brought with a little list of things that you were especially for on the School Board and some that you were against. The most effective way to proceed with your story of your service to Arlington on the School Board might be for you take that list and go over it with any comments that you want to make. Do you agree? NARRATOR: I would be happy to do that, yes, and I'll do it as briefly as I can. INTERVIEWER: Take your time, we do not want to shut this off in any way. NARRATOR: Ed, I'm just by nature a fastidious file clerk. Whenever I'm doing an extracurricular community assignment, I keep meticulous notes in the files, therefore, one day following my leaving the School Board in Arlington, I went through my files to develop a list of anything that looked like an issue. So, from that perusal of my files, I came up with a list here of about 29 or 30 issues in which I was particularly interested. I'm sure there are many others of even greater or lesser importance, but these are some of the ones I felt deeply about, and of course heading that list would be the matter of desegregation of the public schools. But first, let me read into the record the negatives. I try to be positive, constructive, and affirmative in my work because I feel basically I'm an educator interested in development and utilization of human resources. There were, however, six or seven issues that I had to be against. Here they are. And then I'll give you 22 issues during my term, my tour of the Board, about 22 issues that was for. INTERVIEWER: Would you go over those seven, and I'd be glad to have your comments as to what happened to your opposition. NARRATOR: Okay. I was against school prayer in the classrooms because I believe in the fundamental concept of separation of church and state, and even though I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and I still adhere to those principles as best I can, I just feel that school prayer has no place in the public schools. INTERVIEWER: During your terms on the School Board, was that a live issue or had the Supreme Court already acted in the matter? NARRATOR: I can't remember the timing of that, but it did come up as an issue and I don't--as you know, it just keeps coming up--we've just had another round of it over on Capitol Hill, but at any rate I was against it then and I'll be against it tomorrow. INTERVIEWER: The School Board did not take any affirmative action in favor of school prayer? NARRATOR: That's right. It let the matter rest, whatever the status quo was. I was against smoking on campus of our public schools. INTERVIEWER: What happened to that? NARRATOR: All right. There developed a working majority, to my great satisfaction, in support of that as a policy. You know, I made that motion on account of the Surgeon General's report linking tobacco with cancer. INTERVIEWER: That working majority accepted the policy and the policy was in effect--is it still in effect in Arlington? NARRATOR: You know, I live in Fairfax now, and I see that the matter has come up again for review by the School Board in Arlington and it sounds as if there was a relapse in Arlington for a time at least, so I don't know what the status now is in Arlington. INTERVIEWER: Well, you succeeded in having the policy adopted prohibiting smoking on the campuses and, of course, in the buildings of the Arlington schools? NARRATOR: Yes, there was--we had no way, of course, of controlling the students going across the street and smoking on the street corner, but I felt that it was just inconsistent for us to be in the business of health education and at the same time allowing smoking to go on on campus in the very sight of the teachers and principal. I was against tuition grants which was a big part, as you mentioned, of the Gray Commission report. INTERVIEWER: Actually, the Supreme Court took care of that matter in, as I recall it, the second desegregation decision involving the state of Arkansas and Governor Faubus. NARRATOR: Yes. But there was a time, brief as it may have been, in which Arlington had to go through the motions of--the paperwork and all--to get some tuition grants for some children. INTERVIEWER: There was nothing you could do about that in that period? NARRATOR: Nothing we could do about it. I always voted "no"--it was one of those things that had to go down to Richmond for approval of individual cases. Another thing that I was against, strongly against, and I had a public posture in Arlington and went around and made a few speeches about it, was the expansion of the Drew-Kemper Elementary School to 37 classrooms, which was nearly twice the size of a standard elementary school, or a typical elementary school, in Arlington--usually about 18 to 20 classrooms, but the Drew Kemper area down there in South Arlington outgrew the building and it was either a matter of finding another site nearby, there was another one but it was, some people said, too hilly. At any rate, I opposed that expansion and eventually the courts supported me in that position. I hear that the School District served by that big elementary school was broken up--or something happened. INTERVIEWER: On the Drew school? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: I believe that is now used as a special school for special projects. NARRATOR: I'm not current anymore on Arlington schools. I was against the proposal by a member of the County Board, a Mr. Castro, now deceased, who had a proposal to have the School Board members resign when ABC lost control of the Board. An interesting position. He felt that a School Board should serve at the pleasure of the working majority on the County Board, I presume. INTERVIEWER: I take it that that was a personal expression of opinion that would have no legal effect because of the status of the Virginia law, which provided for the appointments for fixed terms, did it not? NARRATOR: I think so; I think that's right. I was against commercial advertising in and on the school premises. For example, on the athletic field score board and the book covers and calendars. I found when I came onto the Board that a child would bring home a school book with a cover on it furnished free of charge by Mr. Magruder, who just happened to be running for the Board of Supervisors. I would go into the classroom where my children were getting educated and I'd find on the wall a calendar furnished through the courtesy of some bank, and I didn't think that was right, and out on the athletic field it was Coca Cola and we must have plenty of good citizens around here selling Pepsi Cola instead of Coca Cola, so I tried--I didn't get much support on that but I was always against it. INTERVIEWER: You say you did not get support? NARRATOR: No, I never got support. I was against it. And the last one that I have in my notes here that was an issue that voted "no" on, with some repercussions, when Helen Lane, a member of the School Board, moved one day that we require all teachers and applicants for teaching positions to sign a special oath affirming their non-involvement in Communist activities. I had to vote "no" on that for two reasons. One-- INTERVIEWER: Was that adopted by the School Board? NARRATOR: No, it was not, to my satisfaction. I was against it for two reasons: One, I felt it was discriminatory against the teachers; we were not requiring the same kind of thing from policemen and firemen, or librarians. And 2, I think that's a poor way to catch Communists. We don't want any Communists, of course, in our schools, but there must be better ways than that to catch them. INTERVIEWER: I understand you had some personal repercussions because of that vote. It might be interesting for you to describe briefly what happened. NARRATOR: The very next day on my bread and butter job across the river, my boss, the Director of Personnel of one of the agencies, called me in and asked me to stand at attention practically and to explain why the Washington Post was reporting that I had voted "no" on this motion. INTERVIEWER: That you were a Communist, in effect? NARRATOR: He as much as suggested that I must be a Communist, Jim Stockard. And I tried to explain to him but nevertheless he set in motion his internal investigative people to check me out, and they did a full field investigation. About a year later, on Christmas Eve, they came in as if they were giving me a big gift and said, "Well, Jim, we checked you out and we didn't find a thing." INTERVIEWER: Didn't find you a Communist? NARRATOR: No, they didn't find I was a Communist. INTERVIEWER: Here is a little interlude. When Elizabeth and I were active in the desegregation movement (and possibly you had the same experience), particularly when I was involved in the Norfolk case to have the massive resistance law declared unconstitutional, we used to get phone calls accusing us of being Communists and these were rather emotional days. NARRATOR: Yes, they were. I received a number of threatening phone calls and I received through the mail one time a picture of somebody that had been bloodied somewhere in the U.S. because he had supported desegregation and the implication was that this could happen to me if I persisted in my position on that. INTERVIEWER: I don't suppose it had much effect on you. NARRATOR: No, it didn't. I felt at that point fully committed to the position that I had taken. INTERVIEWER: Well, you go ahead now. NARRATOR: Now, there are some other issues, about three-to-one in ratio, issues that I took an affirmative position on. As I've already mentioned earlier, I was for the desegregation of the Arlington schools and I had better mention at this point, Ed, that contrary to the public understanding, it wasn't--this business of desegregation was not just a matter of getting some Black children into the schools that had before then been for White children only. It was a multifaceted thing and I've got some points to prove it. It was multifaceted because you not only had to worry about placement of the children, we had to worry about the school districts. That's one of the most controversial things in public education--where are you going to draw the boundaries? INTERVIEWER: There's no way you can do that right, is there? NARRATOR: No. So, we had that problem, the school districts. We had of course placement of the children, assigning a particular child to a particular school. Number 3, we had the business of desegregating athletics. Many parents seemed to be opposed to having their child involved in bodily contact athletics, and this came into sharp focus at one Board meeting when we had to decide as to whether or not we were going to let one of our high school teams engage a team (Annandale, I believe) with Black athletes. We voted "Yes, we will." INTERVIEWER: There's been a great deal of progress in that over the years since that time. NARRATOR: Yes, there certainly has. Another aspect of the desegregation was the social activities. Many parents were not about to let their Johnny or Mary go to a dance where there would be a Black child. We had also the matter of employment policy--shall we or shall we not in our recruitment effort look for some Black applicants? INTERVIEWER: Affirmative action? NARRATOR: Right. Then came the issue of staff assignments. Shall we keep those Black teachers locked into their Black schools, or shall we consider them for career opportunities in other schools throughout the County? I took the initiative on that and one day it was the lead article in the Washington Post because I think we were the first in the South to do something about that. INTERVIEWER: Jim, these other items that have just mentioned, these ancillary facets of desegregation, was your position accepted by the Arlington School Board in each of those cases? NARRATOR: I would say yes, ultimately. No court action was necessary to settle any of these matters, so eventually we wrestled it through. INTERVIEWER: Then your position was ultimately accepted by the Board? It was not opposed by the majority of the Board members and ultimately took effect throughout the County, did it not? NARRATOR: Yes, it did. INTERVIEWER: Obviously, we all know that there was complete desegregation--that has been complete desegregation of athletics. There's been desegregation of social activities, has there not? NARRATOR: Yes, but we had to go through an interim stage on the social activities. As you know, one of the churches, the Methodist church at 16th Street and Glebe Road, agreed to be host to the dances, and it was by-- INTERVIEWER: You may have abolished dances for a particular period, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, as a public school system sponsored activity. Another facet of this whole thing was, as I mentioned, the size of buildings that we were to construct. Another was the allocation of the resource material and the utilization of the old schools. So, there were many facets to this desegregation question; not just a matter of getting Black children going to a logical school in relation to their home. So I feel, Ed, that I performed, at least according to my own conscience and beliefs, on the matter of using the public schools, for all the people. I was pro-integration, pro-desegregation. I was also pro, consistently, on the elected School Board. I testified in Richmond to that effect. I have lobbied for the elected School Board both for Arlington County and Fairfax County since we lost it in Arlington. I was pro-kindergarten. Believe it or not, there were some people in Arlington who opposed kindergarten. They thought we couldn't afford them, they thought that they were-- INTERVIEWER: You're referring, of course, to public kindergarten? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And, as I recall, the School Board of which you first became a member there, was in favor of public kindergarten, was it not--there was no opposition from that Board? NARRATOR: I don't think there was. It took money, of course, and we were always short of money. I remember Jeanette Nygaard. Jeanette Nygaard was a wonderfully skilled person in elementary education. She was selected by the Superintendent to do the conceptual planning to run the first--to oversee the public kindergartens once they began. She did a marvelous job. Another issue that I was for consistently was teacher salary improvement. We were constantly battling to get more money for the teachers and that really is the secret of good education. INTERVIEWER: Then I take it on that, while you may have been the most articulate spokesman, and I'm sure that the other members of the School Board agreed with you that efforts should be made to increase the salaries of teachers, did they not? NARRATOR: Yes, I think particularly the ABC-sponsored members of the School Board. There came a time, you recall Ed, when we had some people appointed from the other side of the fence. INTERVIEWER: Other side of the political spectrum? NARRATOR: All right, now, at that time, Jim, were suggestions made by one or two other School Board members to save money by filling vacancies with inexperienced teachers who were to be paid smaller salaries? NARRATOR: That's right. My memory tells me that Bob Peck was one of those who were looking for ways to save money and he would, I think, have put a lot of green apprentices without teaching experience into teaching positions in the County as a way of saving money. INTERVIEWER: Was his position carried? NARRATOR: It did not prevail, fortunately. INTERVIEWER: On the question of teachers' salaries, this is different from what you might refer to as merit pay--is that a separate issue? NARRATOR: That's a separate issue. We were trying, you know, to improve the scale and this was done with deliberate speed, but not dramatically overnight. Because the County had just so much money from the taxpayers to spend, and you know the County itself in general government was competing. INTERVIEWER: Did we finally get the salaries in Arlington during your tenure on the School Board up to the higher level of the Washington Metropolitan area? NARRATOR: I believe we did. I believe we were ranking at or near the top before my tour on the Board ceased, so I regard whatever influence I had as one of the most significant things I did because money attracts people and you can't expect people to work just out of love alone in teaching. INTERVIEWER: All right--the next one. NARRATOR: The next issue I have in my notes that I felt keenly about--and these incidents are really random, mentioned in a random order, not necessarily in order of importance--the business of desegregating the faculty. The idea that if there is an outstanding Black teacher or administrator somewhere in the system that he need not be considered solely for work in his building where he's always been prior to desegregation from the pupil standpoint. Now I have in mind a very brilliant and effective Black male in our system--I don't remember his name but he was down in the Hoffman-Boston junior-senior high complex, and his specialty was in music and dramatics. This gentleman was considered and approved for placement up in the Yorktown High School in North Arlington, so he went from South Arlington to North Arlington. INTERVIEWER: He went, I take it, from the area which was largely and almost exclusively composed of Negro residences to an area that was composed almost exclusively of White residents? NARRATOR: Exactly. And one of the greatest thrills of my service on the School Board was to go one night as a School Board member and witness an end-of-school performance by probably 100 or more students in the Yorktown High School, and this man who was orchestrating and directing the whole thing, put on a performance worthy of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. INTERVIEWER: Was he pretty well accepted by his peers? NARRATOR: The audience that night was electrified. Of course, many of them had children performing and you might expect them to be pleased, but he, it seemed to me, was as accepted as if he were out of New York City or some other place where there is lots of good music and I was very pleased with his acceptance and the work that he was obviously doing there. INTERVIEWER: What's the next item? NARRATOR: Another issue that I took special interest in, Ed, was the issue of eliminating secret societies in our high schools. INTERVIEWER: Fraternities? NARRATOR: Fraternities, sororities--I just felt that the existence of these secret societies was inconsistent with the democratic principles that we were teaching in the schools, and so I moved to have them--any work on behalf of these societies--eliminated from the premises of the public schools, and as I recall that position prevailed after a lot of dialogue and I don't know if they exist now or not. We did for a time at least get rid of them. Another matter was the desegregation of athletics which I have already alluded to. Actually the Board did not have to do much to see the desegregation of athletics, the coaches took care of that. INTERVIEWER: There were some very able Negro athletes that the coaches wanted to have on their teams? NARRATOR: That's right. As I remember, one of the coaches--and this was Arlington against somebody else--the other team's coach said, "We're not coming [Annandale to Wakefield, I think it was] unless we can bring our Black member or members of our team." And there were some people on our School Board, I'm sure Barnard Joy was one of them, who were interested in athletics and he didn't want to see athletics and I didn't want to see athletics disappear from our curriculum so we managed to get that. It did take some kind of a resolution on the part of the Board so that the principal at Wakefield and the coach at Wakefield would not be subject to discipline if they went ahead. So the majority of the Board did put on record a resolution favoring the continuance of athletics regardless of racial considerations. Another matter was--it was an ongoing thing--the matter of school construction. We decided that as a matter of public policy in Arlington, we ought to try to adhere to a reasonable teacher-pupil ratio, such as one teacher per 25 students. Actually this varied a little from school to school, but we had a general guideline. Now this meant that from time to time, usually about every two years, we had to propose another bond issue to get some money to build schools because you can't build school buildings that last 50 years or more out of current income, and this always aroused the conservative elements of the business community in Arlington. Ironically, some of those same people in the Arlington Chamber of Commerce were putting out slick print literature all over the country encouraging people to come and settle in Arlington because of the fine schools, but they would fight us to the death on the bond issues that paid for the buildings. INTERVIEWER: Actually those bond issues had been one of the earliest problems of the School Board from its original elected inception, had it not? Before you came on the School Board. NARRATOR: That's right. It was an ongoing thing from the time the good guys, you might say, took over on the School Board back in '48 that brought in a new Superintendent and all of that. INTERVIEWER: It's sort of an endemic problem of democracy, isn't it? Democracies are unwilling to take action involving expenditures of money until they see, shall I say, a desperate situation such as pupils on double shifts? NARRATOR: Yes, until it affects their child adversely, and that's unfortunate but it's happening right now as you know all over the country--communities voting "no" on bond issues that are probably essential to the welfare of their own children. I was a one-man lobby, I think, for a while on more emphasis on tennis--and you can guess why. I've been playing tennis since I was 10 or 12 years old. I found when I came onto the Board that the Arlington public schools owned not a single tennis court. Can you believe that, Ed? They owned not a single tennis court. There were 4 or 5 courts somewhere right near where we are sitting now in the Arlington County Central Public Library. There were a few courts but they were owned by the County. The County would loan them the Washington Lee High School. INTERVIEWER: When you say the County, you mean under the jurisdiction of the County Board? NARRATOR: Yes--County Manager. INTERVIEWER: And they would let the schools use them during certain periods? NARRATOR: Yes. Certain hours. Our Washington Lee High School, which was the closest. INTERVIEWER: You had the same problems at Yorktown, didn't you? NARRATOR: Yes, and Wakefield. INTERVIEWER: Greenbriar? NARRATOR: Greenbriar, I think it is. I served for two or three years on a recreation council, I think it was called, that was headed by the County Manager. It included some County Board members, and there was always a delegate from the School Board on that, and throughout my 12 years or so on the School Board, I was always lobbying for a little more money in the school budget to put in some tennis courts, and you know when I left the Board I was happy as a lark in one way because we had tennis courts at Washington Lee, we had tennis courts at Wakefield, we had tennis courts at Yorktown High School, and at most of the seven junior high school campuses. INTERVIEWER: You were a rather effective lobbyist. NARRATOR: I was a pretty good lobbyist. Unfortunately, as we built more tennis courts on the County side and on the school side, there became more tennis players and I couldn't get a court to play on in the public parks. I promoted this thing down here with Al Lundberg, the County Manager. He was the County Manager for a long time. And I went over to see Lundberg one day and said, there's a lot of unused land down there where the railroad tracks used to be, and all you've got is a baseball diamond there, why don't we build some tennis courts? Lundberg decided that was all right, and he did it. It became sort of a showplace for tennis and they had tournaments down there. Well, if I didn't do anything else, I stimulated interest in tennis. I'll take credit for that. Now, another one that I became active in as an issue was the reform of the Honor Society. Did you hear about that? The Honor Society of the Arlington Public Schools? INTERVIEWER: I don't know specifically to what you're referring. NARRATOR: Okay. There is, first of all, a National Honor Society. INTERVIEWER: I do know that. NARRATOR: Okay. Our three children all went to Washington Lee High School and the issue came home very sharply to me one day when our distinguished son and many of his distinguished peers who were in the upper echelons of the school academically, and as far as we knew they were good citizens in all other respects, but a lot of these high achieving young people were passed over for the National Honor Society. When we got to the bottom of this, parents became enraged about it and many parents began to call on the Superintendent and the Principal at Washington Lee and said, what is this, what do you have to be to win--here's a student with all A's--he's a good citizen, he's--you know--and when we got to the bottom of it we found that the teacher who had been running this for about 25 years, with the support of the principal, was using the Honor Society selection system as a disciplinary weapon. Any student who dared to write something critical for the school newspaper, or question a policy on something of the school, that became an indelible black mark, and the student was not supported for the National Honor Society. INTERVIEWER: You mean, he wrote something which the teacher disapproved? NARRATOR: Yes. And as you may know this actually resulted in the firing of a principal because of the way that matter was being administered--the Honor Society selection system. The whole Board got into that, and we reformed it. INTERVIEWER: Do you know about what year that was? NARRATOR: Well, this would have been in the mid '60s. INTERVIEWER: All right, what's the next one? NARRATOR: Another issue that concerned me, Ed, was the matter of how to draw the school boundaries. I took the position, consistently I believe, that geography should be the single criterion--how large or small should the district be in order to fit the children into the building or buildings that were served in that district? Now, as you know, prior to the desegregation of our schools in Arlington, we had the awesome thing of a school district consisting of a blob of land up in what we called Halls Hill on Lee Highway, and that was connected to a blob down in South Arlington which was served by the little Hoffman-Boston elementary school--those two little land masses were connected by five miles of Glebe Road--and that was a gerrymandered district if I ever heard of one. INTERVIEWER: Now that's Hoffman-Boston. NARRATOR: Hyphenated. INTERVIEWER: Yes, hyphenated. NARRATOR: One of the first moves the Board had to take was to destroy that gerrymandered district, and we had other, not as severe as that one, but we had other adjustments to make in the school boundaries and you know we were pressed on one side by the conservatives and on the other side by the more liberal element to draw those, to maximize the white population in any given building. INTERVIEWER: Now you say geography would be the only criterion, and geography would have to be measured by convenience in avoidance of crossing main highways and that sort of thing, would it not? NARRATOR: That's right. You would need to consider, for example, today I suppose this Interstate Highway 66 that whips through Arlington, and Shirley Highway that goes north and south. INTERVIEWER: They would have to be considered as boundaries? NARRATOR: Natural boundaries, yes. But save for that, it seems to me geography is a logical single criterion for drawing the boundaries. INTERVIEWER: You mean you should not consider social or economic circumstances of the family? NARRATOR: Correct. INTERVIEWER: Now that's the primary negative thing of that sort, is it not? Geography would necessarily involve not only the natural boundaries such as what you say with respect to Route 66 and Shirley Highway, but it might also involve a hillside or getting in a group of houses that were convenient, something other than drawing a concentric circle of which the school building was the center? NARRATOR: I would think that a logical geographic configuration which would hopefully not slice a given community into two or three parts would be ideal. Of course, at some point the boundary line has to run down a given street. You can't run it through the air and so children that play together maybe-- INTERVIEWER: May go to different schools--there's no way to avoid that--the school districts. NARRATOR: All right. Another issue that was active during my tour is that of, as you know, closing the Hoffman-Boston Senior High School. INTERVIEWER: Do you know when that was closed? NARRATOR: No sir, I can't recall the year, but it was I would guess in the early '60s. INTERVIEWER: Did you have opposition on the Board for that? NARRATOR: I really should have with me a listing of the Board members for particular periods, but I don't have that and I just depended on the configuration of the people on the Board. Conservatives certainly would have been against that sort of thing--people like Peck, Helen Lane, Dean and some of those people were on--some of those people were on--but I don't recall who voted how. INTERVIEWER: The Hoffman-Boston was closed and the pupils were transferred to Wakefield, were they? NARRATOR: Yes, sir. The junior high students went over to Thomas Jefferson and the senior high students of Hoffman-Boston went to Wakefield. INTERVIEWER: And did not the principal of Hoffman-Boston take a position at Wakefield as Assistant Principal or something of that sort? NARRATOR: Yes, he did. We had no work left for him at the old Hoffman-Boston building so he became Assistant Principal at Wakefield. Another matter, and again I mention that these are random, mentioned in a random order, the abandonment of the single salary schedule for teachers--my favorite. Call it merit pay if you like. I couldn't raise much support for that either on the Board or even among the teachers. In fact, the teachers were bitterly opposed. INTERVIEWER: The teachers wanted salary steps based solely on seniority, did they not? NARRATOR: Yes, longevity. And that's not good personnel management. I finally got to the bottom of it, Ed, as to why the teachers were in opposition. The teachers, perhaps through hearsay about the results of attempts to have merit pay in other communities around the nation, decided that they could not trust the administration of such a plan. They could not trust principals, administrators, to administer such a scheme with objectivity. INTERVIEWER: That is, I take it, still a highly controversial issue in public education in America, is it not? NARRATOR: Yes, it is. That issue is recycling now and I notice that a number of communities are giving serious consideration to it. My position was grounded in the belief that everybody knows who the master craftsmen teachers are. The students know and other teachers know. Parent know because they are constantly trying to get their child moved into a certain classroom because they know that that teacher is outstanding. I suppose there would be some reluctance on the part of the principal to have that role, because he then is playing give and take away, you see, he has to single out you as the outstanding teacher, and me as the just so-so teacher. So we got nowhere on that issue. We had a lot of debate, though, a lot of hearings, a lot of committee meetings, but we finally had to abandon it. Another matter that interested me very much because of my professional background is this--some school systems and some employers just sit and wait for applicants to walk in. My own experience is that walk-in traffic is--too much of it--made up of unemployables. They are people who are washed ashore from somewhere else, or were never able to get a job in the first place, so if you wait for people to walk in you may be left with the rejects--the passed-overs. INTERVIEWER: You were urging an affirmative recruitment policy? NARRATOR: I was from the beginning interested in positive recruitment programs for teachers, and so every spring, with or without my urging, and it probably would have happened anyway because Ed Rutter, whom I admire so much-- INTERVIEWER: Ed Rutter, he was the Superintendent of Schools? NARRATOR: During a part of my service, probably 4 or 5 years, and the rest of the time it was Ray Reid. Now Ed Rutter, the Superintendent, each Spring, which is a good recruitment time because it's near the end of the road for the students in teacher training institutions, he would send teams all over the Eastern sector of the United States to the college campuses which were known to be successful generators of outstanding teachers. And those teams would, interestingly, carry with them stereo slides showing the environment in which the teacher would be working if he or she came to Arlington, the kinds of resource materials we were using and all that, so to me this was good personnel management and I favored and encouraged that all I could. Another one was on insurance. Believe it or not, the insurance of all of the plant that we had in the school system, the insurance was being handed out on a non-competitive basis to the Arlington insurance industry. I moved against that and insisted that we put the insurance on a competitive basis. What was happening was that the fellows who were selling insurance in Arlington County were, they were assigning the insurance to companies, one or more companies of their choice, and then they, through some committee or mechanism of local insurance people, were slicing up the premium pie among themselves on the basis of their prorated share of total insurance business done. In other words, if I'm an insurance man and you're an insurance man, and you do a million dollars’ worth of insurance in a year, and the total insurance in the County is one hundred million dollars, okay, you get one percent of the premium on the Arlington school buildings. And that was the way it was working. We got rid of that, with the help of the County Board, and-- INTERVIEWER: And adopted a competitive system of bids for fire insurance for the schools? NARRATOR: Yes. And a side issue was that of whether to limit consideration in our competitive bidding process to the stock companies, or expand it to include the mutuals as well. Traditionally, the local insurance interests had gone exclusively with the stock companies. I insisted that we have a man bid who had consistently had the door slammed in his face, one who was operating out of Falls Church out here--George Reeves, a mutual insurance company representative. Reeves insisted he could save us money, and he did. He bid lower than the stock companies. So there were some insurance issues that I wanted to get at-- INTERVIEWER: You said that you got the cooperation of the County Board. I suppose that was also involving the insurance on County Board buildings? NARRATOR: Dave Krupshaw had an eye for business. He was on the County Board then, and he got very disturbed about this, and was working on it from the County Board side. Another matter that became an issue was what I call fringe benefits for teachers. You know, salary alone is not quite enough. I believe in the continuing education and in-service training of teachers and other employees, so I was particularly pushy about getting some fringe benefits that they hadn't had. For example, having a kind of pool of money which we could tap when there was a worthy case of some member of the staff who needed to update or upgrade his or her education, and so we began an active program of out-service training subsidies, you might say. INTERVIEWER: The sabbatical? NARRATOR: The sabbatical was another form of it. INTERVIEWER: The out-service training need not be sabbatical; it might be after hours? NARRATOR: This could be evening classes. And the Superintendent-- INTERVIEWER: Were you able to get, call it subsidies, for that purpose? NARRATOR: Yes, we did. And each year that fund would grow a little because of the interest on the part of other teachers, and then the Superintendent and his staff changed, or adjusted their personnel policies, so that it became a requirement like many other professions have, that you must within a given time period do something about updating your skills. INTERVIEWER: Your continuing education. NARRATOR: Yes. Another--I'm approaching the end of this series of issues, Ed, I think. Open public meetings of the School Board kept coming up from time to time as we would get new people onto the School Board, they would say, why can't we have a private meeting about this, you know, and we don't have to hassle with the public out there, do we? And so-- INTERVIEWER: You took the position in favor of public meetings at all times? NARRATOR: Yes, I did. Except on three matters. INTERVIEWER: You might list those three. NARRATOR: You know what they are. Personnel matters, like, we're going to fire a principal for cause, perhaps, unless the hearing develops reasons why we shouldn't. Number two is on land-- INTERVIEWER: Acquisition of land? NARRATOR: Yes. And another is legal matters. We didn't discuss our position in public in advance of the hearing. So, except for those three exceptions, I stood consistently for--and I'm not saying other School Board members didn't-- INTERVIEWER: And I believe that because of your position and with the support of some others, it has been the established practice, has it not, in both the Arlington School Board and maintained also in the Arlington County Board, is it not? NARRATOR: I believe that's the case. I applaud that posture. INTERVIEWER: That did not preclude, did it, private preliminary conferences on budget details, or did it? NARRATOR: We had working sessions, executive sessions, during the formulation of the budget, which is really-- INTERVIEWER: Prior to its public hearings? NARRATOR: Yes. Establishing some objectives, goals, etc., but when it came to the matter of debating and taking positions, our debate was always open to the public. Another matter was--there was a lot of dialogue and controversy about the new Thomas Jefferson High School, which now sits in its majesty over here on Route 50, you know. It's a prime building. But the bond issue that would have supported the construction of that new building failed the first time around, because it was rooted in the whole business of whether to close out Hoffman-Boston or not. I took the position that we should close Hoffman-Boston, but the community itself was divided and it wasn't a matter that you could just decree. You know one of the hallmarks of the elected School Board, I think, was citizen participation. No better principle of government than getting the people involved, and we did have tremendous involvement on the part of South Arlington residents in that issue, so eventually it came to be. As I was leaving the Board, the building was under construction and I'm happy to see it over there. INTERVIEWER: Not on Route 50--one of the side streets. NARRATOR: Arlington Boulevard. Well, there is a little separator strip in there, but it's close to Route 50. Another one that I raised as an issue myself was that of putting into our personnel policy book a policy on how to handle reductions in force. No good personnel policy is complete without the policy about how you're going to shrink the staff. It's fine and good on how you're going to enlarge it-- INTERVIEWER: What was your position on this? NARRATOR: Well, all I wanted was a policy that would set forth the criteria and the guidelines by which we would reduce the force. INTERVIEWER: You did not want it solely on the basis of seniority, I take it? NARRATOR: I wanted it on the basis of merit which would be tied to a good, effective performance evaluation system and multiple judgement instead of the supervisor being the sole judge, the principal being the sole judge, but no one seemed interested in that then because we weren't reducing the force. Now it's the order of the day in Arlington I hear, because of a shrinking school enrollment and I would be surprised if they didn't wish they had one because otherwise you make post facto rules. INTERVIEWER: It was not adopted at that time while you were on the Board? NARRATOR: Not at all. Much to my regret. I was in favor, of course, it goes without saying, that because I was ABC-sponsored (Arlingtonians for a Better County), I was for wider and wider involvement of citizens in the formulation of public policy with respect to the schools, so during my service on the Board we had countless citizen task groups, advisory committees around every school, and all of that, and not just -- I think in the early days of Arlington public schools from what I heard, not under the elected School Board but prior to the elected School Board, it was a matter of buddy-buddy, friends of the Superintendent or friends of the County Board, who were the people involved in the schools. Another one--this was an interesting side issue--as to who should be the counsel, the legal counsel, for the School Board as we went to federal Court from time to time. Being a southerner, I felt that the South deserved the best counsel it could get, or the most -- the legal person who stood very high among his peers, and so I made the motion to designate as a member of the counsel team-- we actually had two or three people doing that--I nominated Senator Ball because if the Southern point of view was to lose in the end, I wanted them to lose with their flags high, and being carried by none other than the Dean. I understand he was then the Dean of the legal profession, at least in the General Assembly. INTERVIEWER: This was the famed Arlington attorney, Frank Ball, Sr. NARRATOR: Yes. His name you know is still around. We have the Ballston Metro Station not far from his home in Arlington. INTERVIEWER: I'm not sure I understand what you said -- the position you took. You said you wanted the most distinguished Southern lawyer--you were not opposed to desegregation; you were in favor of desegregation. NARRATOR: I was in favor of desegregation. I hoped and prayed that opposing forces would lose, of course, but I believed in both sides of an issue having their day in court, with representation as good as they could have. INTERVIEWER: Well now, you were certainly not in favor of Arlington School Board objecting to desegregation of the schools in Court proceedings, were you? NARRATOR: I consistently voted "no" on every case that went to Court, with the possible exception of the first case that I think went all the way to the Supreme Court. I felt that a specific case deserved a hearing at the Supreme Court level, but they refused to issue a "writ of certiorari. " Now, once that decision was made at the Supreme Court, forever after in my tenure on the Board, I voted "no" against the School Board opposing any case that the local citizenry or any segment thereof might bring to court, and they did continue to bring those cases. I even registered my negative position against the School Board's involvement in the support of such cases by sending certified letters, return receipt requested, to Simmonds, our head counsel. INTERVIEWER: That's James H. Simmonds. NARRATOR: Well, our team of lawyers, the School Board's team of lawyers, consisted of James Simmonds and Senator Ball. To the best of my knowledge, there were not others on those court cases, but on some of those matters I went to court because all Board members were subpoenaed. I was there as a spectator, but not testifying. INTERVIEWER: I believe I represented the School Board in One case. I don't know whether you were on the Board or not at the time. It involved the transfer of students from Hoffman-Boston, and Strangely enough, Judge Lewis decided in favor of the segregationists' viewpoint. The case was Warren, I believe, and it was reversed in the 4th Circuit, and I think you were on the Board at the time, and my recollection is that you gave substantial support to the position that the Board then took, which was that we should desegregate Hoffman-Boston as speedily as possible. NARRATOR: Well, Ed, that is the end of the informal list of issues in which I became involved and felt keenly on. INTERVIEWER: Now, are there any other matters which you would like to express yourself on while we're here, with respect to your relations to Arlington County, its people or its government? NARRATOR: Yes, there are several matters that I would like to mention. Ed, there are a few things I want to say in closing my commentary. I want to say first, and I really mean this Sincerely, that my twelve and a half years on the School Board in Arlington were the highlight of my community experience in my lifetime, the wonderful people I met, including you and your good wife Elizabeth. That was a most rewarding experience to be associated with people, all of whom were interested in the school improvement movement. I want to just mention a few names besides yours and Elizabeth's, of people who impressed me. These were people in the private sector of our economy. The first I want to mention and pay tribute to is Dave Krupsaw. He ran for the County Board the same year that I ran for the School Board, and he served on that Board until his untimely death in an airplane accident. Ralph Kaul is another. He is in land development, housing. Another was Herbert Brown, who served a tour on the County Board. Herb was then the Managing Editor of Changing Times, I believe. INTERVIEWER: Changing Times being a Kiplinger magazine. NARRATOR: Kiplinger magazine, consumer-oriented. And another who impressed me so much because he was an exception to Our local business community, and that was Ed Holland. Ed Holland basically was an engineer, but he became a banker when he acquired an interest in the little old Old Dominion Bank that was right in an island at Cherrydale on Old Lee Highway, and Ed Holland was a good banker. I see him from time to time. He's in retirement now but he serves as Chairman Emeritus in a banking syndicate and network of banks that he established. INTERVIEWER: First American? NARRATOR: First Virginia Bank. Ed Holland told me one time that, he said, "Jim, people are interested in two things primarily--their children and their money." And Ed set out to help us improve the schools in Arlington. He was working behind the scenes in an advisory committee role and he supported us On bond issues while his counterparts in the business community locally were working against us on those bond issues and not helping us get on with the job. Ed Holland deserves a lot of Credit as, of course, so many other people do, but five or six of you, I thought, were really the leading citizen class of that era. The end product that makes it all worthwhile for me is what happened to our three children who went throughout the system in Arlington. We have a son, James G. Stockard, Jr., who is a graduate of Princeton University in architecture, Harvard University in urban planning, and Union Theological Seminary in New York City. He is the head of a consulting firm working all over New England. He's doing well. We have a daughter in the Chicago area, Ruth, who is a graduate of Northwestern University, University of Denver, and the Illinois Institute of Technology. She has specialties of speech, dramatics, and now law, and is a practicing attorney for a large, large firm based in downtown Chicago. We have a daughter, Janet, another product of the Arlington school system, who is a graduate of Northwestern University in journalism and also of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. She has been working for the World Bank for the last 10 years and, interestingly, is the first woman ever designated by the World Bank to head one of its Overseas missions. She is bright, attractive and, apparently, very effective in her work. Now as to my own personal - - INTERVIEWER: Permit me to interrupt for a minute. I assume that possibly a little bit of credit should be given to the children's parents. NARRATOR: Particularly their mother, Nadene. She was the counselor, I was the disciplinarian, but the mix, the chemical mix in the balance apparently produced three for three and we're so delighted. Now, just one more thing. One likes to feel that one is, to some extent at least, accepted by his or her peers and the people that are being served in this democracy by public servants. I got two or three things out of this that affected my pride and my pocketbook. First, the Citizens Committee for School Improvement, CCSI it's called, gave me their award of the year one time, the Citizen Award of the Year, for doing what they considered good things to further the school improvement. I got a little recognition therefore from CCSI. When I left, the year I left the Board, the teachers themselves, through their Arlington Education Association, awarded me their Annual School Bell Award, and gave me a big school bell like the old fashioned thing, and this made me feel good because I felt that I had been not entirely a part of management and public policy making, but I had been working on behalf of teachers through salary improvement and other measures, and I believe that that stems from the fact that I started as a teacher and my whole life's work has been in adult education training, career development, and that kind of thing. I served as a part-time professor for 12 years in the evenings, the same 12 years I was on the School Board, so nearly all of my life's work has been in the field of education, or some facet thereof. Also, this great experience in Arlington public school life was a personal growth experience for me. Still another matter is this -- the citizens of Arlington were paying a small stipend of S75 a month to School Board members when I came onto the Board. Twelve and a half years later, when I left it for an overseas assignment with the United Nations as an educational advisor, it was paying S200 a month. INTERVIEWER: Were you giving 75 hours a month to your work? NARRATOR: Ed, according to my little daily diary book (I have 30 years of them now), my work in Arlington on the schools and related matters involved over 300 meetings a year, and I don't think I got too much pay for that. But I tell you what I'm doing with the Social Security money that I now get--a little over S3,000 a year, because of that 12 years on the Arlington School Board, I'm giving 100% of it to a memorial endowment fund I established at The University of Texas at Austin in honor of my parents. I gave 100% of my inheritance from my parents and I'm giving 100% of my Social Security, and I'm matching that with some personal funds, and now my greatest interest is in that memorial which will be awarding fellowships in six academic disciplines at The University of Texas in perpetuity. INTERVIEWER: Isn't that a fine contribution. NARRATOR: And so I started and end my experience in my profession and here in Arlington with education. Now I'm trying to perpetuate my influence and my parents' influence in the state of Texas where I came from. Thank you very much for this Opportunity. INTERVIEWER: I consider the Only mistake you have made, sir, from Arlington's point of view, is that you left this County and went into the neighboring county of Fairfax. But I suppose Fairfax, being a growing community while Arlington is now more stable, needs your imaginative efforts and I'm certain you're giving them there. NARRATOR: Well, at least they need my strong back and fast feet. My wife and I decided after all of our children were gone from home that we ought to find a little solitude, so we moved out into big, big Fairfax County--a very quiet place, cul de sac, but you know what, pretty soon they found me and I've been active ever since in Fairfax County. Just finished a six-year tour on the Fairfax County Civil Service Commission, which is a quasi-judicial Court that hears grievances from county employees, and I have other roles in the county, so there's no relief for a volunteer. INTERVIEWER: Jim, thank you very much for your Oral history today. It will be valuable to Arlington County, and we appreciate the services you have given to the County through the years. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County School Board Description An account of the resource Typed transcript of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his life and his work on the Arlington County School Board. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource Eglish Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423.pdf Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/2a0db1856ecd47ba5c91c44478e2a608.mp3 ce5a5fb9e369979044e36e594eacc960 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Communism and Anti-Segregation Harassment Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on anti-communist and desegregation harassment. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Communism and Anti-Segregation Harassment Clip.mp3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930s-1980s https://projectdaps.org/files/original/51534972bad7e181deb714232fbf6166.pdf 58db989da05e7298c53e737e962cc84f PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: James G. Stockard INTERVIEWERS: Edmund Campbell DATE: April 23, 1984 Communism and Anti-Segregation Harassment Clip NARRATOR: [00:35:05] And the last one that I have in my notes here that was an issue that voted "no" on, with some repercussions, when Helen Lane, a member of the School Board, moved one day that we require all teachers and applicants for teaching positions to sign a special oath affirming their non-involvement in Communist activities. I had to vote "no" on that for two reasons. One-- INTERVIEWER: Was that adopted by the School Board? NARRATOR: No, it was not, to my satisfaction. I was against it for two reasons: One, I felt it was discriminatory against the teachers; we were not requiring the same kind of thing from policemen and firemen, or librarians. And 2, I think that's a poor way to catch Communists. We don't want any Communists, of course, in our schools, but there must be better ways than that to catch them. INTERVIEWER: I understand you had some personal repercussions because of that vote. It might be interesting for you to describe briefly what happened. NARRATOR: The very next day on my bread and butter job across the river, my boss, the Director of Personnel of one of the agencies, called me in and asked me to stand at attention practically and to explain why the Washington Post was reporting that I had voted "no" on this motion. INTERVIEWER: That you were a Communist, in effect? NARRATOR: He as much as suggested that I must be a Communist, Jim Stockard. And I tried to explain to him but nevertheless he set in motion his internal investigative people to check me out, and they did a full field investigation. About a year later, on Christmas Eve, they came in as if they were giving me a big gift and said, "Well, Jim, we checked you out and we didn't find a thing." INTERVIEWER: Didn't find you a Communist? NARRATOR: No, they didn't find I was a Communist. INTERVIEWER: Here is a little interlude. When Elizabeth and I were active in the desegregation movement (and possibly you had the same experience), particularly when I was involved in the Norfolk case to have the massive resistance law declared unconstitutional, we used to get phone calls accusing us of being Communists and these were rather emotional days. NARRATOR: Yes, they were. I received a number of threatening phone calls and I received through the mail one time a picture of somebody that had been bloodied somewhere in the U.S. because he had supported desegregation and the implication was that this could happen to me if I persisted in my position on that. INTERVIEWER: I don't suppose it had much effect on you. NARRATOR: No, it didn't. I felt at that point fully committed to the position that I had taken. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Communism and Anti-Segregation Harassment Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on anti-communist and desegregation harassment. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Communism and Anti-Segregation Harassment Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/fc6ea96ae3b214103c1df5371c649df1.mp3 741236b1a31e6615c77dc361374aa8f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Loss of the Elected School Board Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on Arlington's loss of the elected school board. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Loss of Elected School Board Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/95e5d4f9ae0460cc253d58b947433768.pdf 165e6755690de04de140f4016434d57d PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: James G. Stockard INTERVIEWERS: Edmund Campbell DATE: April 23, 1984 Loss of Elected School Board Clip NARRATOR: [00:07:47.5] I was elected to my first term on the School Board because Arlingtonians had, by referendum, decided they wanted an elected Board and they then had a New England Town Hall system for choosing their candidates to run for office. I emerged in the Fall of 1955 as one of the candidates, one of the candidates sponsored by the Arlingtonians for a Better County (ABC) coalition, which at the same time was forming. INTERVIEWER: That was in 1955? NARRATOR: Yes, and I was on the slate of the first three School Board members to be endorsed by ABC, and I was elected by the people along with Barnard Joy and Barbara Riches in November 1955, and began my service on the Board in 1956. INTERVIEWER: [00:09:12] You were elected to the School Board as a result of that nomination and election in 1955? NARRATOR: The election was in November 1955. INTERVIEWER: Did you take office on January 1, 1956? NARRATOR: Correct. INTERVIEWER: As I recall, the Supreme Court's decision in Brown vs. The Board of Education, which ordered desegregation of the nation's public schools with all deliberate speed, came out in 1954. Refreshing your recollection for a moment, the State of Virginia which had gone through a period of trauma on the subject, had appointed a Commission headed by State Senator Garland Gray, am I not correct? And they had come out with the so-called Gray Plan in late 1955, as I recall, which provided among other things for tuition grants to students who wanted to go to schools where there might be a person of another race and also provided in effect for local option, or decisions by the local school boards as to just how they would implement, if at all, the Supreme Court decision. Am I correct? NARRATOR: That was our understanding of the Gray Commission report, yes. INTERVIEWER: Well then, when you came into office on January 1, 1956, you came into a maelstrom of problems, did you not, in connection with this? NARRATOR: Yes, I did. The Board then had a policy of meeting twice a month, and I believe it was at the very first meeting, around the middle of January, when the issue came onto our table of the Board. INTERVIEWER: What was the special acute matter that brought it to the table? NARRATOR: As you know, Ed, Arlington was a bedroom for Washington and we had a growing population and this meant that we were involved in expanding the little red schoolhouse and other building construction needs. Due to planning time and construction time, the Board realized it had to commit itself on how to use existing buildings and where to put new buildings. To us the Gray Commission had signaled local option, so we simply took the position that we would, in an orderly way over a period of three years, phase into desegregated public education in Arlington, and so we voted accordingly on the issue that was really involved more at the time with school construction than anything else. INTERVIEWER: Did you have some problem as to whether or not to expand existing all-Negro schools? NARRATOR: Yes, yes. We had three little gerrymandered school districts in the County for Black students, and this had been true historically, and we had to decide whether we were going to further expand those buildings because the Black population was expanding as well as the White population, or should we begin to phase some of the Black children into the White schools? We decided the latter because it seemed to be public policy both of the nation and the State and we wanted to be in compliance with all the public policy that we knew about. INTERVIEWER: Was that acceptable to the powers that be in Richmond? NARRATOR: No, Ed, of course it wasn't. In Richmond it was somewhat like an earthquake that we had last night in this area, I hear, and some of our political adversaries here in Arlington gratuitously rushed down to Richmond with an armload of Washington Posts reporting what we had done the night before. They planted one of those Washington Posts headlining the matter on the desk of every General Assemblyman, who just happened to be in session. The fat was in the fire from that moment forward. INTERVIEWER: Did you have any role or any specific role to play in relations with the General Assembly? NARRATOR: Yes, I did, Ed. You know, my grandfather on my mother's side was at Appomattox when General Lee finally had to throw in the towel and surrender, and my other grandfather also was in the Civil War on the side of the South; i.e., I had good credentials, people felt, for talking with those south side Virginians, and I tried to reconstruct my Southern accent as best I could. INTERVIEWER: The School Board designated you as their representative to go to Richmond? NARRATOR: Yes, they did. I was the School Board spokesman. There were many other spokesmen too, from other facets of community life. INTERVIEWER: From my understanding of the history, you didn't have very much success on that occasion, did you? NARRATOR: No, we got barely a half loaf in the compromise. INTERVIEWER: What was the agitation in the General Assembly--what happened? NARRATOR: One of the neighboring districts of the State, Stafford County, through one of its Delegates there (Mr. Moncure), introduced a measure which would have deprived Arlington of its elected School Board and thrown us all the way back to the appointive system. INTERVIEWER: Appointive system? NARRATOR: You know, the appointive system in some communities in Virginia is really pretty bad. The Legislature, as I understand it, appoints judges and judges appoint an electoral board; then the electoral board appoints the board of trustees and the board of trustees finally appoints a Superintendent. So you got the Superintendent about four levels removed from the people he's trying to serve. Fortunately, our compromise that they-- INTERVIEWER: Now, wait a minute. The system provided that the Circuit Judge, which as you say was elected by the Legislature, would appoint a school trustee electoral board, and that school trustee electoral board would choose the members of the school board? NARRATOR: They would. INTERVIEWER: They would choose the members of the school board, and that system still obtained in all counties of Virginia except Arlington? NARRATOR: There were no trustees in between the electoral board and the superintendent? INTERVIEWER: No. It's the School Trustee Electoral Board, I think is the name of it. The compromise that you referred to was what, sir? NARRATOR: The compromise was to allow Arlington to have its School Board members appointed by the governing body of the County, the Board of Supervisors, and also they agreed to have the grandfather clause and let those of us who were then serving on the School Board finish out our terms, so we got two compromises. INTERVIEWER: So as a result of that, you finished your term as an elected member? NARRATOR: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And after that, were you re-appointed by the County Board? NARRATOR: Yes, sir, I was. I was re-appointed twice, each time to a four-year term. Somehow I got an extra six months out of the elected term, because I think the new mandate became effective July 1, even though the General Assembly voted in January. INTERVIEWER: You were then on the School Board 12-1/2 years? NARRATOR: Yes, sir. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Loss of the Elected School Board Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on Arlington's loss of the elected school board. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Loss of Elected School Board Clip.pdf https://projectdaps.org/files/original/75d75d7f549132373182afc06a026ca8.mp3 3b4c25b391ed42a96096a86a162b3a09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Multifaceted Desegregation Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the audio recording of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on the many facets of desegregating Arlington Public Schools. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Multifaceted Desegregation Clip.mp3 https://projectdaps.org/files/original/034220264d6c29da2021b75e9b9dede6.pdf 6f85afa60e7f880b578db6f91a2c6721 PDF Text Text ARLINGTON COUNTY LIBRARY Oral History Project NARRATOR: James G. Stockard INTERVIEWERS: Edmund Campbell DATE: April 23, 1984 Multifaceted Desegregation Clip NARRATOR: [00:38:07.3] Now, there are some other issues, about three-to-one in ratio, issues that I took an affirmative position on. As I've already mentioned earlier, I was for the desegregation of the Arlington schools and I had better mention at this point, Ed, that contrary to the public understanding, it wasn't--this business of desegregation was not just a matter of getting some Black children into the schools that had before then been for White children only. It was a multifaceted thing and I've got some points to prove it. It was multifaceted because you not only had to worry about placement of the children, we had to worry about the school districts. That's one of the most controversial things in public education--where are you going to draw the boundaries? INTERVIEWER: There's no way you can do that right, is there? NARRATOR: No. So, we had that problem, the school districts. We had of course placement of the children, assigning a particular child to a particular school. Number 3, we had the business of desegregating athletics. Many parents seemed to be opposed to having their child involved in bodily contact athletics, and this came into sharp focus at one Board meeting when we had to decide as to whether or not we were going to let one of our high school teams engage a team (Annandale, I believe) with Black athletes. We voted "Yes, we will." INTERVIEWER: There's been a great deal of progress in that over the years since that time. NARRATOR: Yes, there certainly has. Another aspect of the desegregation was the social activities. Many parents were not about to let their Johnny or Mary go to a dance where there would be a Black child. We had also the matter of employment policy--shall we or shall we not in our recruitment effort look for some Black applicants? INTERVIEWER: Affirmative action? NARRATOR: Right. Then came the issue of staff assignments. Shall we keep those Black teachers locked into their Black schools, or shall we consider them for career opportunities in other schools throughout the County? I took the initiative on that and one day it was the lead article in the Washington Post because I think we were the first in the South to do something about that. INTERVIEWER: Jim, these other items that have just mentioned, these ancillary facets of desegregation, was your position accepted by the Arlington School Board in each of those cases? NARRATOR: I would say yes, ultimately. No court action was necessary to settle any of these matters, so eventually we wrestled it through. INTERVIEWER: Then your position was ultimately accepted by the Board? It was not opposed by the majority of the Board members and ultimately took effect throughout the County, did it not? NARRATOR: Yes, it did. INTERVIEWER: Obviously, we all know that there was complete desegregation--that has been complete desegregation of athletics. There's been desegregation of social activities, has there not? NARRATOR: Yes, but we had to go through an interim stage on the social activities. As you know, one of the churches, the Methodist church at 16th Street and Glebe Road, agreed to be host to the dances, and it was by-- INTERVIEWER: You may have abolished dances for a particular period, did you not? NARRATOR: Yes, as a public school system sponsored activity. Another facet of this whole thing was, as I mentioned, the size of buildings that we were to construct. Another was the allocation of the resource material and the utilization of the old schools. So, there were many facets to this desegregation question; not just a matter of getting Black children going to a logical school in relation to their home. So I feel, Ed, that I performed, at least according to my own conscience and beliefs, on the matter of using the public schools, for all the people. I was pro-integration, pro-desegregation. Page 34 Page 37: NARRATOR: [00:47:44.45] The next issue I have in my notes that I felt keenly about--and these incidents are really random, mentioned in a random order, not necessarily in order of importance--the business of desegregating the faculty. The idea that if there is an outstanding Black teacher or administrator somewhere in the system that he need not be considered solely for work in his building where he's always been prior to desegregation from the pupil standpoint. Now I have in mind a very brilliant and effective Black male in our system--I don't remember his name but he was down in the Hoffman-Boston junior-senior high complex, and his specialty was in music and dramatics. This gentleman was considered and approved for placement up in the Yorktown High School in North Arlington, so he went from South Arlington to North Arlington. INTERVIEWER: He went, I take it, from the area which was largely and almost exclusively composed of Negro residences to an area that was composed almost exclusively of White residents? NARRATOR: Exactly. And one of the greatest thrills of my service on the School Board was to go one night as a School Board member and witness an end-of-school performance by probably 100 or more students in the Yorktown High School, and this man who was orchestrating and directing the whole thing, put on a performance worthy of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. INTERVIEWER: Was he pretty well accepted by his peers? NARRATOR: The audience that night was electrified. Of course, many of them had children performing and you might expect them to be pleased, but he, it seemed to me, was as accepted as if he were out of New York City or some other place where there is lots of good music and I was very pleased with his acceptance and the work that he was obviously doing there. Page 39 Page 40: Another matter was the desegregation of athletics which I have already alluded to. Actually the Board did not have to do much to see the desegregation of athletics, the coaches took care of that. INTERVIEWER: There were some very able Negro athletes that the coaches wanted to have on their teams? NARRATOR: That's right. As I remember, one of the coaches--and this was Arlington against somebody else--the other team's coach said, "We're not coming [Annandale to Wakefield, I think it was] unless we can bring our Black member or members of our team." And there were some people on our School Board, I'm sure Barnard Joy was one of them, who were interested in athletics and he didn't want to see athletics and I didn't want to see athletics disappear from our curriculum so we managed to get that. It did take some kind of a resolution on the part of the Board so that the principal at Wakefield and the coach at Wakefield would not be subject to discipline if they went ahead. So the majority of the Board did put on record a resolution favoring the continuance of athletics regardless of racial considerations. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Multifaceted Desegregation Clip - Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984, Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Description An account of the resource Excerpt from the transcript of an oral history interview with James Stockard on April 23, 1984, regarding his reflections on the many facets of desegregating Arlington Public Schools. Interviewer is Edmund Campbell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Relation A related resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423_Multifaceted Desegregation Clip.pdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlington Public Library Oral History Program Description An account of the resource The Arlington Oral History Program preserves the memories of Arlingtonians who witnessed and made history in a growing collection of over 375 interviews. This sample features interviews with people who were involved in the desegregation of Arlington Public Schools in various ways. You can listen to the audio recording of the interview and read through the typed transcript by clicking any of the files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 176kbps Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:41:40 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Stockard Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Edmund Campbell Location The location of the interview Arlington County, Virginia Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edmund Campbell Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930s-1980s Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Stockard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Apr-84 Description An account of the resource James Stockard elected to the Arlington School Board, after being involved in the PTA, in 1955 and served for 12 ½ years. His time on the School Board was tumultuous; Mr. Stockard experienced the County’s loss of an elected school board and actively campaigned for desegregation in Arlington Public Schools, among other things. His interview, which mentions his Southern identity twice, sheds light on the regional conflicts that riddled the issue of desegregation in Virginia. He was interviewed for the Arlington Public Library Oral History Program by Edmund Campbell in 1984, and his interview is available in its full audio and typed transcript forms. You can also read and listen to excerpts from his oral history, regarding the loss of the elected school board in Arlington County, the multifaceted issues of school desegregation, and the connection made by opponents to integration between desegregation activists and “communists.” Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context stockardj19840423 Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Arlington County Library Oral History Program Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This interview is subject to copyright. Unauthorized use of the interviews in the Local History Collections of the Arlington Community Archives is prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Arlington County Library Oral History Program Subject The topic of the resource Desegregation Arlington County School Board Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with James Stockard, April 23, 1984 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History